Dhruti Shah
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Shaunagh talks to Dhruti Shah
This episode features BBC journalist and author of Bear Markets and Beyond, Dhruti Shah. Dhruti specialises in news verification, user-generated content, investigative reporting and creative storytelling through social media. She has worked across much of the BBC including its news website, flagship investigations program Panorama, the business unit and the World Service.
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Credits
Hosted and produced by Shaunagh Connaire and edited by Ryan Ferguson.
Episode transcript
Shaunagh Connaire
This episode is sponsored by Noa, an app I listen to regularly. The first 100 people to visit newsoveraudio.com/mediatribe will get a week free to listen to articles from The Economist, Bloomberg and Foreign Affairs, plus 50% off.
Shaunagh Connaire
Welcome to Media Tribe. The podcast that's on a mission to restore faith in journalism. I'm Shaunagh Connaire, an award-winning journalist with over 10 years of experience working for some of the biggest news outlets in the industry. Every week I'm going to introduce you to some of the world's most respected journalists, filmmakers and media executives, and you're going to hear the story behind the storyteller. You'll get a sense of the integrity and hard graft that's involved in journalism, and hopefully you'll go away feeling that this craft is breath valuing.
Dhruti Shah
We were doing that stuff before they'd built in content moderators. We were looking at the raw unfiltered stuff and checking it through. Too many beheadings, too much death, too many nasty things. And it is really important for journalists, even freelances, to be aware of that and to be aware that there are people out there who are interested in making sure that we don't get sick.
Shaunagh Connaire
My guest this week is BBC News journalist and author of Bear Markets and Beyond Dhruti Shah. Dhruti Shah, you're most welcome to the Media Tribe.
Dhruti Shah
Thank you. I'm really excited to be here.
Shaunagh Connaire
Well, it's lovely to have you on Dhruti, and we, of course, crossed paths back in 2012. We were both on the John Scofield mentoring scheme. I believe we were the first bunch to be chosen to be mentees that year and we struck up a friendship off the back of that, which was awesome. And you've been at the BBC for many a year now, so do you want to tell our audience how you ended up at the BBC and everything you do there?
Dhruti Shah
Definitely. So yeah, I've been at the BBC for 13 years. I calculate and I was like, "That is a long time." And so, actually, before I even got to the BBC, I worked in local papers and I never even thought about broadcasting. So here's a top tip, you have no idea what's going to happen in the future or where you're going to end up. So I was in local papers, very happy because I like local papers, I like being accountable to the community, but they were constricting and you've got to adapt, you've got to move with the times, as it were. And then I went to go work for a small production company called Insight News Television and then I ended up at the BBC. Again, not ever expecting to be at the BBC, not expecting somebody like me would be welcome there, to be perfectly frank with you. And I was like, "Hey, let's apply." I went to a random event, I met somebody who was looking for unusual characters. Apparently I fit that mold.
Shaunagh Connaire
That's a compliment Dhruti, just by the way, that's a compliment.
Dhruti Shah
I definitely take it as a compliment. And then I've been at the BBC ever since, but I've wandered around. And I think this is why you and I are definitely friends and having met at the John Scofield Trust and bonded, in that we don't just stay doing one thing, we like to try lots of different things. So I worked at a website because I like to write and working for the BBC News website is a privilege, I'm not going to ever take that away. I worked at Panorama, so doing investigations, much like you do. And then I worked in strategy and running the BBC News LinkedIn account, so moving all across. And where else? World Service, News Hour, so radio. So lots of different public sector broadcasting, but for most of my time, so now in fact, oh my gosh, 10 years. 10 years I've been doing user generated content. So it's also known as iWitness Media and that means covering the social beat.
Dhruti Shah
So getting heartbeat stories, finding them where people aren't able to go, where war correspondents aren't able to go, where we don't have somebody, but yet there's something happening. So terror attacks, yep. Natural disasters, yep. Stories about people with dementia, yep. So nurses, the pandemic, every single thing that you can think about in terms of a story, having somebody at the heart of it, somebody who's very media savvy or very [inaudible 00:04:17] that's the work that I've been doing. And that means that clearly my experience is very, very broad and I've been around at the BBC and been like, "Let's try a new adventure," each time.
Shaunagh Connaire
What's so interesting about your work Dhruti, I mean, you started working on verification and debunking fake news many a year ago, way before the times that we're living in now, fake news, it's a headline in the news every single day. And of course everything that's just happened here in the US, people are really focused on misinformation and disinformation and how that's affecting our world. But you, of course, have being in this field for years now. Do you want to maybe even just explain what that even entails, verifying content and why we need to do that and the tricks you employ to do that Dhruti?
Dhruti Shah
Sure, although I need to flag up, you also have an amazing podcast out there already with Malachy Browne from the New York Times. So if you're going to listen to me and you haven't listened to that episode yet, you need to go back. But I do want to make something really clear, in that I believe any good journalists, any journalist worth their salt, again, you've been working investigations for such a long time, you'll have been debunking, you'll have been verifying as part of your job. You'll have been moving things and saying, "Actually, do you know what, this isn't accurate. This isn't worth a story or this isn't something that we need to focus on." What's really been a sea change is where now people are a lot more transparent about that, which they would have left before and not made it to broadcast, not made it to air. Journalists since time gone, have always been doing disinformation debunking, misinformation debunking, looking at propaganda and deconstructing it, and I think sometimes people forget that.
Shaunagh Connaire
Do you want to talk about the actual user generated content, I mean, that's the material that you for years have been verifying and just explain to our audience, many of them, in fact, the majority of them are not journalists, so explain exactly what that is and how you go about that Dhruti. I think that would be really helpful.
Dhruti Shah
Of course. So in terms of user generated content, that comes from the audience, that comes from users as a way. It's a bit of a clunky term to be perfectly frank with you and that's why some other people use eyewitness media. But say you're out and about, not planning to get up to any mischief or do anything naughty, et cetera, you're just walking out and about. Nowadays, pretty much everybody has a camera on them. And I don't know, say an earthquake happens. Touch wood it doesn't, but say an earthquake happens. And there you are filming a selfie and then you go, "Oh, hold on a minute. The earth is rumbling underneath the ground. What is going on?" And then you start spinning around, I guess, or you start filming everything that you can see amongst you. But that footage was taken by chance, on one hand.
Dhruti Shah
What would then happen, is bearing mind that that's an instantaneous moment. We would not have correspondents out there necessarily to be able to capture that. So then what would happen is then you then upload it onto social media or you then send it, if not to the BBC, to another publication or it goes out there into the ether. And then what happens is we then do some jigsaw identification and we check, hold on a minute, is that really an earthquake? Has that really happened, or is this mischief making going on? Because there are people out there who want to pretend things are happening, that aren't necessarily happening, for various reasons. So wait, hold on, so you, Mr. Joe Brown, you're there and hold on a minute, it looks like there's somebody else there. So wait, we've got two sources here. Hold on a minute. Now there's another one popping you, another footage, perhaps this is on Instagram, perhaps this is on YouTube, perhaps this is coming through WhatsApp.
Dhruti Shah
So now you're starting to build up a picture, there's clearly something going on. What then happens is you check the location. So sometimes things will pop up with no specific location data on there. Often people do tag, I am in X, Y, Z. So what you will then do is then try and cross reference and match, to check is that person actually in ... We had the Christchurch earthquake, for example, take that as an example that we worked on, is that person actually there? Can we see landmarks? Can we cross reference against Google or against any other map, et cetera. So you then do that. Okay, we know that this person is definitely, the likelihood of that person being where they say they're being, is high. Then if they've been in contact with us, or if say there's a tweet out, for example, we'll then message and be like, "We need to speak to you."
Dhruti Shah
In an ideal world, in terms of verification, it's much better to speak to someone. The reason why, is when you can talk to someone, you can do cross-referencing, but you can often, especially as you get more and more experienced, hear if they're lying, you can tell what is the truth. So you would ask things like, where exactly are you? What can you see around you? Can you give me some context before, in terms of what you were doing? At what point did you get up to this moment? What are you going to do now? The key thing is making sure that they're always safe. At the end of the day, when it comes to journalism, it's the welfare of someone, rather than, "Oh, here's the story? Oh my gosh, they're in a dangerous place. That's cool." No, it's not cool. They need to be in a safe place at that point, in order to be able to speak to you.
Shaunagh Connaire
So they become these citizen journalists and what you're saying there then Dhruti, is that you automatically, nearly as their editor, that you have a responsibility, a duty of care towards them, to make sure that if you're going to go ahead and use their footage once it's verified on the BBC, you need to make sure that that person is okay and what have you. As you would with your normal journalists who are under you at the BBC.
Dhruti Shah
To a degree, but also not to degree. Bearing in mind that they are a normal member of the public. They have not put themselves in this position. They have not been commissioned. They have been there by instant chance. And also what the role is, yes, you're basically raw news gathering, as they call it. So you're collecting the content, but you're making sure, and that's where the verification element comes into play, that this is accurate content, that this is reflecting the reality of what is in the ground. You don't have to do that with your own correspondents because clearly you've got to the stage. The other thing is, your own correspondents, we're editorially trained. We will be looking out for specific things to film or people to interview or people to talk to.
Dhruti Shah
We would never ask somebody to go out and interview somebody. We would never go out and ask someone to put themselves in danger. These are all after the event, in terms of you're there. Sometimes they don't have footage, for example, sometimes it will be an audio only interview. You still have to check that they are there, that you're not being hoaxed in any way. And then sometimes they're not in a position, they might be in shock, to put on air. So, yeah, you're right in terms of you're making editorial calls and you're deciding whether they are a suitable contributor and they are a comfortable contributor, which to put forward.
Shaunagh Connaire
Yeah, I means, it's the ethical side of your job, which is really, really important, especially, you're working with people you just don't know at all, so you have to do all of this hard work in the background. Well, I think, it's probably, I don't know what year you started doing that type of work, Dhruti, verification, was that really 10 years ago?
Dhruti Shah
I realized, I've marked my anniversary, I think it was either last week or the week, no, I'm pretty sure it was last week.
Shaunagh Connaire
Wow. You really were ahead of the curve and it's really, really important work in our field. So it's great that somebody like you, as qualified and as experienced as yourself Dhruti, is on the case. The next question Dhruti, as you'll know, it's the larger part of the interview, but I'd be very keen to learn about a story or projects that you're incredibly proud of. As you say, you've dipped into so many aspects of journalism over the years. And as you say, that's why we get on so well, we give everything a bit of a stab, whether it's documentaries, or podcasts, or writing, or newspapers, or digital, or what have you, but is there something specific you have in mind that you'd like to tell our audience about?
Dhruti Shah
I'm going to be completely shameless and say that I've got this book out and I've been working on it for four years. And it has emerged from a very surreal place, in that I was never a business expert. I never studied business in that degree. I have had false imposter syndrome, et cetera, but I have an illustrated bestiary and that is a guide to animals in the business world. And it's called Bear Markets and Beyond. And I've worked on it with an illustrator named Dominic Bailey, and it's so weird, but yet it's proving incredibly useful, especially in this post COVID financial world, helping people to understand something that is very, very closed off. So in terms of you and I getting on because we do very unusual things, this is completely out there. I mean, this is the thing, you've got an investment banking background, you've got economics.
Shaunagh Connaire
Well, you made me a bit rich there. No, I have an accounting background. I definitely was never an investor or trader.
Dhruti Shah
That was not verified. But that's the thing, having that ability to move, I think it's been a confidence booster in that respect, in the fact that it has gone out there and it's had really good reviews. We sent a copy, so I said, it's very simply, here is a picture of a cash cow. And here's me being a little bit funny and a little bit silly, but also very serious and explaining to you what a cash cow is, if you don't know, but yet you've heard it quite a lot of times and you know people are talking about it. And much like me, I'm like, "Huh? What exactly is going on?" Or here is a unicorn because everybody keeps talking about these unicorns. Well, do you know what? They're not real life unicorns, no, they're business terms. Or bear markets, oh my Lordy. So bear markets, especially as the pandemic was beginning to emerge much more, people were searching bear markets considerably. I think it hit record levels in terms of Google searches, when the people were looking for it, when the markets were going up and down.
Dhruti Shah
I don't know what a bear market is. I don't understand what's going on. But actually a bear market is when the stocks or shares are going down, like a bear swots it's paws down. That's far more interesting. And you're like, "Oh, okay." If that means that the stocks and shares and everybody in finance is having a bit of a oh, let's see what's going on, then you're going to be more interested. If I said to you, "Yeah, bear market." You're like, "Oh, that's nice." But if I say to you, "No, this is going to affect you because of your pensions, because it's going to have a ripple effect, because of it's going to affect money matters in this way." But think of it in this way, that bear with its paws down, you're going to take more heed of it, surely.
Dhruti Shah
And the thing is with this book, it's suitable because it's got such great illustrations. Dominic just went off on one, as it were, we would collaborate, but I was like, "Let's be free. Let's have fun with it." The whole point is to make it a bit more fun, rather than something dry. It's suitable for children, so we have people's kids from three, four years old, just picking up the book, looking at the images. They don't need to know the words, they just need to never be scared of business. They just need to be, as soon as they're exposed at a young age through visuals, they're like, okay at some point when somebody says to them, "Oh, what's a zebra company? What's a dog eat dog?" They'll be like, "Oh yeah, I'll go and look at my book."
Shaunagh Connaire
Well, it's fantastic. No, it really, really is beautifully illustrated, as you say Dhruti, and extremely helpful, even for a person like myself, who I'm supposed to have a financial background, but there was quite a few terms in there that I had never come across before. So it's essentially a financial jungle and you've illustrated predators trying to climb their way to top of the food chain, as it were. And you mentioned, of course, bear markets and there's bull markets. My son, who is 16 months admittedly, has also had a bit of luck with the book himself. He's quite obsessed with animals at the moment. I can't say he fully understands what a chicken investor is yet, but give him a few years Dhruti, and he'll be all over that. It's a great book and I do definitely encourage people to check it out. We can buy it on Amazon, Dhruti, or local bookshops?
Dhruti Shah
Yeah. You can buy it in your independent bookstore. I mean, you can buy it in the bigger places, but if you look for it, it's Bear Markets and Beyond, it's Dhruti Shah and Dominic Bailey. But one thing I do want to say, and I think it's really important because you have got this amazing podcast with lots of takeaways about media. So with this, I went to go and work in the business unit. So I was taking a break, which is important, from the verification world, for a degree. I went to work in the business unit and I did have false imposter syndrome. I was worried that I was with these people who are really good at what they do, who are amazing, who have all this knowledge. And when I was hired, because I'm really good at social storytelling, having spent such a significant proportion of time working with the audiences on the social beat, you clearly will gain experience in terms of what people are looking for.
Dhruti Shah
But I went in and I go to meetings and people would be talking about hawks and doves and how people are perceiving the financial world or as I said, the bear market. And at that point, because I didn't fully understand, I was concerned. And so what I was doing, I started sketching. And so there's that element of storytelling, when you don't allow yourself to be limited in terms of the portfolio, like you and I both do, I think it really helps. And so I could have easily gone there and been like, "Oh, this isn't for me, this is not the place for me to be. This isn't where I belong." And instead I was like, "Okay, no, I don't feel comfortable here, but there are some terms, I'm going to grasp those terms, which aren't quite what I expect them to be and I'm going to sketch." I'm not as strong illustrator as Dominic is, I'm good, but I'm not as good. So you know your forte. And that's when it emerged. And I always hope that people don't be limited, it's always worth trying something.
Shaunagh Connaire
Totally. I think you've tapped into two really important things there actually. So business journalism and finance journalism is in some ways, sometimes it feels really inaccessible because as you say, there's all of this language that's potentially there to confuse us anyway. So we don't understand, and we get hoodwinked by various mortgage scenarios or pensions, really complex territory as well. So well done you for being in that situation, being slightly confused by all of these terms, but coming up with a solution to help others going forward.
Shaunagh Connaire
So that's the first point, but I think the second point is, and I know a lot of young journalists do listen to this podcast and part of our mantra is that we want to inspire the next generation. I think to take away from your story would be that if you get pigeonholed, you can always break away from the sphere that you've been put in and try new things. I think probably an onus on us, on our generation, I'm not saying we're terribly young, Dhruti, but we're in the middle of the road, let's just say and it's important though, for us to keep honing our skills and trying to add new skills all the time because you just have to, you have to keep on evolving if you want to survive in this industry. We definitely know that, that you just have to keep on trying new things and testing new things and new ways of storytelling. So fair play to you.
Shaunagh Connaire
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Shaunagh Connaire
Is there another story Dhruti, because I was on your website earlier in the week, which is really lovely by the way, whoever designed that, but you've done such an array of stories over the years. Is there anything else from your catalog that you'd like to delve into?
Dhruti Shah
One thing I'm really actually super proud of and this is a couple of years ago, so it does date slightly in that respect, but I don't think the idea dates, as it were. In that I went to go and work for the World Service for a little bit, on a special project and it was actually called freedom. So going back to that UGC element and get that experience and not just doing negative things, which is what often people think UGC is about and iWitness Media. We asked the world, what does freedom look like? And that's a very abstract concept. It will be different for different people. It will be different across cultures. But I'm super proud of the fact that a very small team of us, I think it was three. Yeah, no, it was three of us, three of us got together and we asked the world and the world delivered and we were able to create, there's a beautiful video on YouTube actually, so it should be accessible to everybody, it's called freedom 2014.
Dhruti Shah
And it's just amazing because we got contributions in different languages, from different parts of the world. You've got migration, you've got ... I'm trying to think one of the ones that stood out. There was this young woman who was separated from her boyfriend because he was an immigrant who wasn't allowed to come to her country. And for her, her idea of freedom was to be able to be with him, to be able to cross that barrier. And all we wanted was a singular picture for that and we would then record them in their own words, giving a single sentence. And that human relationship, I've never forgotten about after however many years, especially now. And I think I probably think about it a lot more now because when the pandemic, the fact that so many things have been restricted, and in fact, I actually think it's time for us to ask the world again, what does freedom look like? What do you want in terms of hope in a post COVID world?
Shaunagh Connaire
I think you're tapping into something else there, it is sometimes important to have redemption in these stories. You mentioned you moved into the business side of the BBC to give yourself a break from verifying citizen footage. And I think probably what you were saying there, Dhruti, obviously correct me if I'm wrong, but you spend a lot of your days looking at very, very horrific imagery, from war, from earthquakes, as you said, images where people are really suffering. And I know we've talked about trauma before and you obviously were part of the Columbia Ochberg Fellowship that really focuses on trauma. So even though you spend a lot of your time at a desk, on a computer, you also would endure that level of trauma when you're constantly being barraged by images like this. Is that what you're saying? So it is nice then to have a little bit of redemption in stories and do something lighter.
Dhruti Shah
That is exactly it. And the thing is, so I've got this fellowship with the Dart Center for trauma in journalism. I do a lot with them to try and help people who are contributing, who are the other end of the stick in terms of being interviewees, but also to help journalists take care of themselves. And I'm really proud that I found my tribe, as it were, and that you can go to them and be like, "Okay, this has happened. I don't know how to deal with this situation." And we're able to build resilience. But yeah, to be honest with you, too many beheadings, too much death, too many nasty things, too much racism, too much xenophobia because that is what happens in humanity. Humanity is not all light, you have dark shades of things. And in the social world, I think maybe because people are behind screens that there is that degree of, "Oh yeah, it's a screen. Oh yeah, I can give you the dark excesses."
Dhruti Shah
When you're on the other end of it and you're filtering through, you've got to be super careful. And now whenever I read about content moderators, like those who work for the big platforms, we were doing that stuff before they built in content moderators, we were looking at the raw unfiltered stuff and checking it through. But yeah, when you've got the nasty stuff, when people are using or attempting to use the media platforms to send out propaganda messages, to send out nasty messages, it can, I think, unless you've got robust procedures in place and that's where the Dart Center has been amazing, where there's been a lot more research, where as long as you're very careful with it and you put these procedures in place, it is really important for journalists, even freelances, to be aware of that and to be aware that there are people out there who are interested in making sure that we don't get sick. Because people can get sick and you have to take breaks, you so have to take breaks. You can't do it 24/7.
Shaunagh Connaire
Yeah. Well, the Dart Center at Columbia University, if anyone is unfamiliar, is really a fantastic resource. We have an amazing woman there, Jeanny Gearing. I was lucky enough to work with the legend that is Jeanny, back in, gosh, maybe 2016, on a film in Germany involving LBGT refugees. But the work they do there is really important for journalists dealing with trauma and PTSD and what have you. And as you say, Dhruti, that can be behind a screen or that can be out in the field or what have you. But it's all very important that we talk about this and deal with this in our industry. Dhruti, last question, is there a crazy experience that you'd like to delve into, that the world doesn't know about?
Dhruti Shah
The first one was when I was a cub reporter in local papers. And so you had a particular beat and I was in a particular place in London and there was one story where I was going to go and make friends, make contacts as it were. And that's really important when you're on a beat. Anyway, bearing in mind by the way, because this is an audio piece I'm brown, I'm very brown by the way, this is very important, I'm brown, I'm [inaudible 00:25:53].
Dhruti Shah
And so I went and knocked on somebody's door, new reporter, a cub reporter, completely fresh. When I knocked on the door and this guy came out, he's a white guy, I don't know who he is, I just arranged to have a chat with him to find out more about the community. Opened the door, two very beautiful German shepherd dogs came out, came up bounding next to me. I really like dogs, so I was like, "Oh cool." So it was like, "Hi dogs. How are you?" And then the guy, this was the first thing he said to me, "Oh, I didn't realize that colored people like dogs." And I was like, "I'm about to go into this man's house. How am I going to play this?"
Dhruti Shah
Bearing in mind, when you're a cub reporter, you've not really been heavily involved in journalism before. And so that's why I want to give this lesson because I could have sat there, I could have got really offended. As a journalist, this is a different persona. I have to figure this out and see if we can move forward and have some dialogue regarding this. And also I'm by myself. The long and short of it was that I took the decision, I went into his kitchen, I had a cup of tea with him, we had a chat. At first it was a little bit awkward because I didn't know what to say, but by the time I'd left the local paper, he was one of my best contacts. And he never said that, that phrase was never used again.
Dhruti Shah
And I think for both of us, it was a really valuable lesson in terms of him never having had, and this is some of the things he would say in the story that we ended up covering, that there wasn't dialogue between the Asian community there and his particular community. So he'd never had a full on conversation with somebody like me before. And he was a great source of stories to be perfectly frank with you. So I could have sat there and I could have judged and I could have been like, "Right, I'm not getting involved in this." And then we could have had cancel culture and actually I didn't.
Shaunagh Connaire
That was a good story and a good lesson, and fair play to you for having that level of patience yourself. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I think it's great for our audience also to meet people who are not continuously out in the field and doing the field reporting or producing and hearing from people who are at their desks and doing equally as valuable work as journalists like you are doing Dhruti. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We're so grateful.
Dhruti Shah
Thank you.
Shaunagh Connaire
If you like what you heard on this episode of Media Tribe, that's very good news because I'm going to be dropping new shows every week and every month, on my new Media Tribe spotlight series. Also, if you haven't already, make sure to take a listen to previous shows with some legendary folk in the industry. And as ever, please, please, please do leave me a rating and review, as it really does have other people find this podcast. Finally, if you do have any guest suggestions, drop me a note on Twitter, I'm @Shaunagh, with a G-H, or @ShaunaghConnaire on Instagram. And again, that's with a G-H. Right, that's it. See you soon. This episode was edited by Ryan Ferguson.
