Basma Khalifa
Media TribeShaunagh talks to Basma Khalifa
Basma Khalifa is a filmmaker, director and presenter. We talk about Basma’s childhood growing up in Northern Ireland as a person of colour, her return to her birthplace in Saudi Arabia in 2018 which was documented in a brilliant BBC Three documentary and eventually getting kicked out of Saudi and we also chat about Basma’s perseverance and the hard graft that has gone into her career to date.
Follow Basma on twitter and instagram.
Episode credits
Hosted and produced by Shaunagh Connaire and edited by Ryan Ferguson.
Episode transcript
Shaunagh Connaire
Welcome to Media Tribe. I'm Shaunagh Connaire and this is the podcast that tells the story behind the story. It's an opportunity for you and I to step into the shoes of the most extraordinary media folk who cover the issues that matter most.
Basma Khalifa
I used every morsel of my being to make sure that I was fully equipped to do what I wanted to do. It's not about thinking of one great idea and sitting back and hoping someone helps you make it. They're not, they're not going to help you make it. You got to make it.
Shaunagh Connaire
Today I'm speaking to Basma, Khalifa, director, filmmaker writer, and fashion stylist. Basma has directed short films for Apple and Facebook and she recently made a BBC Three documentary about returning to her birthplace in Saudi Arabia. Basma, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Basma Khalifa
No problem. Thanks for having me.
Shaunagh Connaire
Well, you're most welcome. It's lovely to finally meet you in person, kind of.
Basma Khalifa
Yeah, virtual in-person.
Shaunagh Connaire
Yeah, exactly. Basma, could you tell our audience how you got into journalism and filmmaking? Your journey is certainly not predictable.
Basma Khalifa
No, it's not. I actually come from a styling background. I've been a stylist for about 10 years, maybe a bit longer now, actually about 10 years. And then I kind of went freelance after working at lots of different magazines. And from there, I just knew that there was sort of just more that I wanted to do. So I was like, what else can I do? And I kind of want to tell stories and I want to tell them my way, I want to speak my truth.
Basma Khalifa
So it sounds like a really easy, easy switch and I just went into documentary making, but I didn't. As a long road, I started vlogging and then from vlogging, I went into sort of just talking to people about my ideas and eventually met an incredible, incredible exec after meeting a billion execs as you do. And yeah, he was like, "I believe in you." And then we built up this idea for my documentary, which ended up going out a year and a half ago now. But yeah, that was a three year journey to get that documentary on the air. But yeah, definitely didn't come from journalism, but yeah, I'm here now
Shaunagh Connaire
Basma, the documentary you're referring to is a BBC Three documentary and whereby you go back to Saudi Arabia where you were born. But before we kind of delve into that film, which is an amazing film that everybody should go and watch. It's on BBC iPlayer. But if you're like me and you're stuck in the US you might have to source it on Vimeo. Do you want to kind of tell us a little bit about your background?
Basma Khalifa
So I was born in Saudi Arabia to Sudanese parents, both my parents are Sudanese. I lived there till I was about two, I'd say, two or three. And then we moved to Northern Ireland. I was in a little town called Lisburn, which is just outside Belfast, about six miles from Belfast. There till I was about 13. Then we moved to a little town called Dumfries in Scotland and I was there for four years. And then I went to uni in Glasgow for three years. In the middle of that and well, just before I moved to London, I moved to New York for six months and then I moved to London and I've been here ever since. Now a London girl.
Shaunagh Connaire
So, I mean, this is a big question, but so your parents are Sudanese, you were born in Saudi and then you kind of grew up in Northern Ireland/Scotland. Do you identify as Northern Irish or Sudanese or a Saudi?
Basma Khalifa
I identify as North Irish. If anyone asks me what I am first, I say, Northern Ireland, and then I will be like, "Oh, but I'm Sudanese." But no, I don't identify as Saudi at all because I just feel like it's kind of where your blood line is. So I definitely say I'm like Irish Sudanese or Sudanese Irish, and everyone's always like, "Okay, well, that doesn't make sense, but okay. Sure. "
Shaunagh Connaire
Well I love that because when I was reading up the various articles out there about you, Basma, you're referred to as British and I was like, "Oh no, can we say she is Irish or Northern Irish?"
Basma Khalifa
I'm Northern Irish. I'm Northern Irish.
Shaunagh Connaire
Well, brilliant. Tell me, how was it growing up in Northern Ireland as a person of color? I'm sure it was difficult.
Basma Khalifa
Yeah. I mean, me and my two brothers, my mom and dad were the only people of color in the whole time and probably the whole Belfast as well. We were definitely the only black people at the time in Northern Ireland and, to be honest as a child, you only see differences when they're pointed out to you. As a child, I didn't feel much different. I started becoming a bit older and a bit more of a woman than a child. As a child, they're just kind of like whatever. I think the big thing for them almost was of course religion because obviously with Northern Ireland and for them wrapping their head around me being Muslim, it was almost like, "Are you Catholic or Protestant? Like pick one." And I was like, "Well, I don't really know what to do here."
Basma Khalifa
So, it was almost kind of like I was so alien that it didn't matter. Does that make sense? So I never felt any different until probably I got into high school and then when all the pretty girls get fancied by the boys and you start liking boys and you want to be stick thin and blonde, but you're never really going to get to stick thin and blonde. So that's when it kind of hit me that I was different, but I loved Northern Ireland. I loved how nice the Irish were and it still like just everyone is so nice. I never felt like I was much different. I probably feel more different in London if I'm honest than I did in Northern Ireland. So yeah, no, I loved it. I had a great childhood.
Shaunagh Connaire
That's amazing. Well, that's great. It is really, really great to hear. And actually, it's such a valid point because obviously in Northern Ireland, you're asked whether you're Protestant or Catholic or people can probably identify your religion through your surname as having very close friends who lived in Belfast as well. But so that was great. You just rocked up and you're like, "I'm a Muslim actually."
Basma Khalifa
Honestly like my friends and everything, no one ever, I never felt, I mean, obviously with any school, I did get some forms of bullying and there was a few things about my skin color and bits and bobs here and there. And I think my brothers had a trickier time, one of my brothers. But in general, I don't know if we could've expected anymore. The internet didn't really exist back then. There was no Instagram and Twitter and Facebook and all these things that make you see the rest of the world at the time. We didn't [inaudible 00:06:11] is. So like, what you see is what you got. So people just looked at us and they're like, "Okay, I don't really know what to do with this." And then we just kind of kept it moving. You know what I mean?
Shaunagh Connaire
Well, I love it. That's a brilliant attitude Basma. So back to your filmmaking and your career so far, you mentioned an exec at BBC, I'm assuming who believed in you. Do you want to kind of, and you said it was a three-year journey, so, you pointed out to our audience clearly, you didn't just rock up and they commissioned an hour film about you. Do you want to talk us through that process and the graft I'm sure that went into that?
Basma Khalifa
No, so it wasn't a BBC exec actually. It was, I've met, actually it was on set styling one day and I'd met a talent agent of one of the celebrities that I was styling. And I sort of was like, it was the first time that I felt like I should start talking about wanting to do TV because it's then and there that I realized that if you don't talk about the thing you want to do, it's not going to become a reality because no one can really help you. So I sort of talked to her about it because I didn't know her. She was a stranger and she was like, well, two things. She was like, first of all, you need to be able to prove that you can actually do it. You can't just say you want to do something if you've got no proof and secondly, you need to be talking to production companies.
Basma Khalifa
And I was like, "Okay, I'll do that. I guess I don't really know what that means." So to start off with, I bought a camera and I started with my iPhone and I just started vlogging. I was interviewing black women in the fashion industry about what it's like to be black and in fashion. At the time, that was only like maybe four years ago and you didn't really talk about things like that four years ago. It's not as open as it maybe even is now in 2020, let alone last year. And from there, she also was like, you should make a show reel.
Basma Khalifa
Also another accident, not accident, but I didn't need to spend a £1,000 in a show reel. I could have definitely, definitely had someone make it for free, like a little student, but I did that and that was good practice and from there I used that as my way to sort of pitch to people. So to be honest, all I really did was I used to watch loads of documentaries and just write down all the people in the back end of it. So all the people in the credits and then just contact them on LinkedIn. I just kept on emailing people and contacting people and being like, "I'd like to talk to you. I'd like to talk to you."
Basma Khalifa
Before that, it's because I had emailed someone at BBC Three and said, "I'd really like to present something." And I can't believe he replied to me, but he replied and he was like, "yeah, cool. But like, you can't come straight to us. You have to go to the production company and they will come to us." But I always thought, I'd still to now, I think it's strange because who can pitch you better than yourself, but that's the way TV works.
Basma Khalifa
And then yes, I met an incredible man called Miki Mistrati and he, from day one was like, "You know what, let's talk." We sat for three hours that day. And he was like, "We've got to make something. We'll figure it out. Let's make something, let's talk about your story. Who are you?" And I was like, "Well, I'm Northern Irish." And he was like, "Yeah, but who are you? Where are you from?" I was like, "Well, I was born in Saudi Arabia." And then blah, blah, blah. And I did that whole story. And he's like, "No, wait, wait. Have you been to Saudi since you were born?" And I was like, "Oh no, no. One day." And he's like, "No, no. That's the story." And I was like, "Oh, okay, sure."
Basma Khalifa
But from then he pitched it to BBC Three. And they were like, "Oh, we really like her, but why now? Why her? Like she seems nice, but it doesn't really matter." So it got rejected by BBC Three, I think three times, four times about two years.
Shaunagh Connaire
Oh really?
Basma Khalifa
Yeah. They just kept being like, "Why her, why her, why her?" We made a little sizzle reel that they really liked. And they were like, "Okay, now we get why her, but like, why now? Does it make sense to do it right now?" And then obviously Saudi Arabia got a new crown prince and all the rules were changing. So I was like, "Well, this is why. This is it. This is why now. It makes sense because all the rules are changing." Still, they rejected it and they were like, "No, not right now, not right now." And then I found an event online that was like a meet the commissioner event.
Basma Khalifa
And I went to this meeting and I knew that was the commissioner we are pitching to. I was like, "Hey, I got an idea that stuck. I really, hello." He was like, "I get thousands of ideas a month. Could you get Miki to re email me? I know Mickey's a good guy." And I was like, "Yeah, he is great." And I was like, "Yeah, sure." I went outside and I phoned Miki and I was like, "Can you email him again?" And Miki was like, "yeah, sure." He emailed again. And then about a week later it was green lit.
Shaunagh Connaire
Wow. That's such a great story. And it's all about persistence. Well, my next question. I mean, I'm teeing you up to answer this potentially and tell us a little bit more about your brilliant film. But is there a story or a film that you're very proud of in your career thus far?
Basma Khalifa
I mean, it will be that story. My thing with the Saudi Arabia story was that even though, I mean, I'm not going to ruin it for people who are listening in, but it doesn't end how it was meant to start. It definitely was meant to be a journey about me figuring out if I could, just going back to where I began or my life began and what it's like there. I'd never been there since I was born. It was a 25 year return was the whole kind of idea. But because it didn't feel as heavy as I think it was in reality. So now looking back on it and watching it back and everything else, I mean I haven't watched it in a very long time but when people give me feedback, I'm like, "Oh yeah, that was quite a big deal." But at the time when I'm with my family, I'm with my little cousin, Jess, my director who you know, like she's so relaxed and so chill, so it didn't feel heavy.
Basma Khalifa
But the ending was heavy and I'm almost quite proud of my resilience. I didn't realize maybe how strong I was until you're put into a fight or flight mode and that's how that fell. I'm very proud of it. As scary as it was and as full on as it was to know now that it's been syndicated worldwide. So to get feedback from people in like New Zealand and Australia and different parts of America is just, and it's in Dutch and it's in German, it's in French, it's an Arabic. It's mad to think that so many people are watching quite a personal story about me. Yeah. I'm super proud of it.
Shaunagh Connaire
I watched it again yesterday and it's such a great film. You're so great and warm and funny and cheeky, but also just for our audience, you traveled back to Saudi Arabia towards the end of 2018. So for context, June 2018, women were given permission to drive for the first time ever in Saudi Arabia. And then of course in October 2018 and we are coming up to Jamal Khashoggi's anniversary, the journalist from the Washington post was assassinated.
Shaunagh Connaire
So you were there in the thick of all of that, but you went back and, and as you say, you went back to meet your aunties and your little cousin, and you lived with them for a time and, and you were kind of testing the lay of the land, whether you could live there. So not that I want to spoil the documentary, but some brilliant scenes are when you-
Basma Khalifa
Some things happen.
Shaunagh Connaire
Some things happen. You saw what it looked like a few good parties, kind of the undergrad scene there, you try driving your potentially British/Northern Irish woman to-
Basma Khalifa
Definitely Northern Irish.
Shaunagh Connaire
Northern Irish drive in Saudi Arabia. And also you try out Tinder, but did you feel like you were putting your family in danger? I'm sure there were huge conversations that you were having at the time.
Basma Khalifa
No. To be honest, no, because we didn't do anything illegally. Everything was above board. They knew about it. We had a bunch of fixers. The government knew about it. We had a film company, everything was done. Even the cameras just bought a camera with her, but we used a lot of their equipment. So there was nothing that I was like, "Oh, we're in trouble." Even when we went to the party and stuff, I mean, I got permission to go. I wasn't there in secret. I mean, you see a scene where I'm coming home and they're like, "Did you have a good time?"
Basma Khalifa
So I think the Western perception of Saudi is quite different to being on the ground. Obviously there are a lot of things that are wrong. There's a lot of things when it comes to women's rights or whatever else that we may not agree with, but day-to-day life isn't that dangerous. Day-to-day life, people are living. People of my age are like hanging out, going to parties, kind of just living their lives. To a certain extent, I think Saudi is that kind of place that if you don't disrupt the system or you don't want to disrupt the system, you can live an okay life. I think if you want to be a bit more of a protagonist and change the system, I think that's where you probably land in a bit more trouble. But every country needs a protagonist, right?
Shaunagh Connaire
And you were definitely that for a week or so, but did you, I mean, what was your kind of personal conclusion after all of that? There were highs and lows. Did it feel like you could do it? Like it's very different to East London, let's call a spade a spade?
Basma Khalifa
Well, it's very different from East London but the thing is, it's not that bad. That's the most disappointing thing about leaving early is that I didn't hate it. By any means I was a bit frustrated at times and I was a bit like, "I just want to do what I want to do." And of course that's a very western mindset to be like, we can do whatever we want. Of course that's maybe just not how it works there. But I didn't hate it by any means. I didn't think like, "This is awful. I could never live here." It's just different. Whether I can live there or not, I don't know, because I don't know how much you can know in six days, but it wasn't the worst place in the world I'd been to, for what I'd seen by day six.
Shaunagh Connaire
I want to talk about another film that you did really recently during Ramadan. That was great. So that's something you directed and I think that's indicative, I would say of your career so far. You kind of seem to be able to do everything, but do you want to talk us through that as well? Because that seemed like a personal film for you as well.
Basma Khalifa
Yes. So I co-directed that one actually. I co-directed a little film that was best around Ramadan. To be honest, I don't publicly talk about religion that much. I've never been that comfortable talking about it, but Facebook came to me and they asked me to co-direct this piece? And really what it was was just like a myth buster, just to kind of say, firstly, there are a bazillion billion Muslims in the world and we're all very, very different because everyone comes from like a different culture. Like Islam is a religion, it's not a culture.
Basma Khalifa
So it was quite nice to sort of like be with these beautiful people and we shot it three days before lockdown and it was sort of just tell a story and change the narrative because everything I try to do in any work, whether I'm in front or behind or writing with the camera is that I want to just like shift the narrative of stuff a little bit. Like let's just change this conversation a little bit and sort of question it rather than just being angry at it. That's even what I tried to do with the Saudi thing.
Basma Khalifa
Let's just question this and try and understand rather than constantly coming up with our conclusions. And that's kind of, that's what the Ramadan for Facebook piece was about and I've just directed two pieces over quarantine over the summer, one for Apple and another one for Facebook. And they're all centered around I guess gen Z like young people and what they care about and what they want from the world. And yeah, I definitely become the Jack of all trades and I don't really know how I did that. I was the Jack of one about five years ago and now I'm like the Jack of five.
Shaunagh Connaire
Well do you know what, I think that is such a good point because when I was researching you and granted, I knew about you from your film in 2018, but I think you are so representative of the next generation of Brits in our industry and kind of the way it seems what you're doing is you're trying to shift perceptions in your work and it's brilliant. Like you're a black woman, you're a Muslim woman and I'm going to say you're a Northern Irish as well.
Basma Khalifa
I always try and say, I'm black but that's not all I am. I'm Muslim, but that's not all I am. I'm a woman, but that's not all I am. I don't think we have to be one thing anymore and I don't think my identity has to be so set in stone that we walk away from it and be like, I know who she is because actually what I quite enjoy is that ambiguity of my, because I don't look the way I sign and I sign kind of weird. And I think a lot of people are like, Oh, she's not even that Sudanese because I don't look Sudanese. I look a lot more Ethiopian, Eritrean than I do Sudanese. So the ambiguity is probably why I challenged perceptions in general. I think that's why when you're creative, it kind of helps actually seeing the world through my lens because I don't see it as one set thing because I'm not one set thing. If that makes sense.
Shaunagh Connaire
It absolutely makes sense. I think it's brilliant. You are bringing different perspectives and that's what our industry needs. Isn't it? I think that's why your style and your filmmaking is so great because it's so bloody different from other things that are out there. I think our industry is I'm hoping kind of experiencing a shift whereby people are beginning to realize that if we all see the world through one lens, the world becomes a very problematic place and some stories never get told and some voices we never hear from. So I think it's really, really important. One question I ask all of my guests is if there is a crazy moment in your career that you'd like to tell us about that maybe we don't know the intricate detail of it? It might be something from your Saudi film because I know one bonkers moment. Give us some extra juice and gossip that we don't know about already.
Basma Khalifa
Well, I think it is that. Yeah, I think it was, not to ruin the punchline and probably you can watch it to find out what happened but I think getting asked to leave Saudi Arabia, wasn't ideal. Definitely one of those things in my career that I'm like, "Ah! Okay." And obviously when you're filming a documentary and how the documentary comes about, it's heightened with music and theatricals and cut screens and different sections or whatever.
Basma Khalifa
But in reality, when you're living it, like it was really full on and I think I come across really calm and collected in the dark and I watch it back and I'm like really Zen, really chill. Okay, I got to leave, this is cool, whatever. In reality, I'm like freaking out, really freaking out. Because it's also, it wasn't freaking out because I was scared, but it was freaking out because if you've built something up for almost like 2 to 3 years of your career and actually something you've wanted to do pretty much your whole life, your whole career, you're meant to be out there to do a mission. You're out there to get content, to make a documentary. So to have to leave after six days, it wasn't necessarily about being scared that I had to leave. It was more like, "Oh my God, I don't have a documentary. It's over. Everything I build up to is over. It's done."
Basma Khalifa
And I think that was so hard to take because it felt like everything I'd done had just fallen apart. So I think that was really, really hard for me to take in. I came back to London from filming and I remember I landed in London and I couldn't get out of bed for like a week. I remember my flatmate was like, "Should we go to Morrison's? Let's go to Morrison's." And I was like, "I just want to cry for days." I literally cried nonstop for a few days and Jess, bless her, my director, went straight into the edit to try and salvage what we had and I left London. I went and stayed with my family outside of London for a little while because I just was like, I've ruined it. I've ruined this whole thing. It's over.
Basma Khalifa
So coming back to London and knowing that we had enough to make a documentary, I mean, even BBC Three were like, "Okay, well okay. We'll just turn it into a 20 minute 30 minute thing. It's okay. You know these things happen." I was like, "No, no." But to get, what 52 minutes of it, I don't even know how long it is, around an hour, is beyond my expectations, but it's the credit to having an incredible director. And one thing that I made sure, well, she made sure and I made sure that we did is that we filmed everything. We filmed bedroom charts, we filmed little giggles, we filmed like all those little things that you see, it was just me like chatting to her. Thank goodness, one heck of a director because she caught moments that I wouldn't even know she was catching.
Shaunagh Connaire
And I hear her name is Jessica Kelly. She really is a brilliant director. People should look her up and watch all her films. But actually that's a great insight. Do you want to tell our audience why you were kicked out?
Basma Khalifa
We're going to ruin it. These people are not going to watch it.
Shaunagh Connaire
They'll 100% watch it because nobody has seen a party scene in Saudi. It was kind of shocking in itself. I was shocked when you were kicked out. I was like, "No, come on guys."
Basma Khalifa
I felt the same.
Shaunagh Connaire
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And you could tell you were upset as well, Basma, and rightly so.
Basma Khalifa
So I got asked to leave Saudi Arabia because I mentioned the name of a female journalist that they didn't want me to talk about. I think they were maybe under the impression maybe we led them that way. I feel like we were pretty transparent, but they felt like we were almost coming over, I guess more travel showesque and sort of be like, "Hey, look at the new Saudi." Whereas I wanted to know what it would be like as a woman living there and to know what it's like as women living there, you kind of have to backtrack a bit and be like, "Okay, what are the women before me as you should do?" So we mentioned the name of a female activist and got overheard by our camera man and he went back and told the government official and they pulled the filming permission that night and then were like, "Get out of here." So we left. So we basically got chucked out.
Shaunagh Connaire
I mean it was crazy and that was during the driving scene. This activist was somebody who'd been pushing for female drivers to have the right to drive, right?
Basma Khalifa
Yeah, exactly.
Shaunagh Connaire
So totally relevant in the moment for a current affairs documentary. I guess it really illustrated the climate and the time when you were in Saudi, when they were really in the news all the time. So it was extraordinary to even get in at that point Basma. So talk to me what's next for you, Basma?
Basma Khalifa
I think that's the thing we talked about when it's like I'm a Jack of all trades because I definitely think I didn't plan to become a director as much as I maybe have done. I have really enjoyed it. It'd be nice to sort of like learn the realm of that and I think it will help me with making documentaries as well. But we're definitely talking to lots of UK based channels about making some docs, which I'm quite excited about it. Hopefully by 2021, I'll be out and filming again. And then directing more. It would be nice to direct some maybe longer lead stuff. Maybe write a little bit more, maybe even think about writing a script.
Basma Khalifa
All these little things I didn't realize I could do, all these things I didn't know I could jump into in a sense and learn about, it's been really exciting to do that. But I think my love lies with being in front of the camera right now and I haven't flexed that muscle enough. Obviously COVID happened and everything got shut down for this year, but hopefully fingers crossed 2021 I'll be back on the screen.
Shaunagh Connaire
I'm sure we'll see plenty more of you Basma. I hope we will. Do you have a message to younger journalists who are listening in your story because it is really quite inspirational? I get calls all the time about how should I break into journalism and do I need to see this degree and you're such a great story to show that actually you can really zigzag your way into a great career here.
Basma Khalifa
I'd say for any journalist listening in, if you want to be in front of camera or actually indeed, if you want to be behind camera is find a story that only you can tell the thing about my Saudi doc because even though it was frustrating that it took maybe 2 to 3 years to get off the ground, in the end I wasn't that scared about it not coming off the ground straight away because I knew no one else could tell that story. That's my story. There isn't any other Northern Irish girls who were born in Saudi Arabia and from Sudan and grew up in Northern Ireland. It's my story and if you can find a story like that that's just yours and you can tell that narrative, it means that you can tell it in a way no one else can.
Basma Khalifa
And as soon as you can figure that out, it means that that's the beginning of your journey. You need to always think of authenticity in that sense. Even if it's not your story, if it's someone else's story and you want to tell that story, you work with that person so they can make sure you get the intricate details that no one else can get. Because I think why my documentary did well is then I had aunts who lived there and they were all women and then there's a little baby cousin who's also a girl and it became this. It's a complete female cast. There are no men except for obviously our fixers and there was something quite genius in that. So I think my advice definitely is find something that truly only you can do, because if it's authentically your story, it will stick.
Basma Khalifa
And such a cliche but I didn't give up, but I veered in different directions. I didn't spend two or three years being like, "Oh, like if this kicks off, I've got to wait for around for this." I didn't. I was still styling. I was still writing. I was thinking of more documentary ideas. I was saving up to buy cameras to learn more skills and how to use a camera. I was learning how to self shoot. I was talking to more people. I was networking. I used every morsel of my being to make sure that I was fully equipped to do what I wanted to do. It's not about thinking of one great idea and sitting back and hoping someone helps you make it. They're not. They're not going to help you make it. You got to make it
Shaunagh Connaire
Amazing. Well, I don't think anybody could put it better than that Basma. You're such a legend. I can't wait to see you on screen again. Thank you so much for coming on Basma. I really appreciate it.
Basma Khalifa
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Shaunagh Connaire
If you liked what you heard on this episode of Media Tribe, tune in next week as I'll be dropping new shows every week with all sorts of legendary folk from the industry. And if you could leave me a review and rating, that would be really appreciated. Also get in touch on social media @Shaunagh on Twitter or @Shaunagh Connaire on Instagram and feel free to suggest new guests, right? That's it. Until next week, see you then. This episode is edited by Ryan Ferguson.
