You've successfully subscribed to Media Tribe
Great! Next, complete checkout for full access to Media Tribe
Welcome back! You've successfully signed in.
Success! Your account is fully activated, you now have access to all content.
Success! Your billing info is updated.
Billing info update failed.

Carole Cadwalladr

Carole Cadwalladr
Carole worked for a year with whistleblower Christopher Wylie to publish her report into Cambridge Analytica. The investigation resulted in Mark Zuckerberg being called before Congress and Facebook losing more than $100 billion from its share price.
‎Media Tribe: Carole Cadwalladr | Cambridge Analytica scandal, Facebook’s role in Brexit & a revealing lunch on Apple Podcasts
This episode features Carole Cadwalladr, a journalist for the Guardian and Observer in the United Kingdom. Carole worked for a year with whistleblower Christopher Wylie to publish her report into Cambridge Analytica. The investigation resulted in Mark Zuckerberg being called before Congress and Face…
Listen to Carole Cadwalladr on Apple Podcasts
Media Tribe - Carole Cadwalladr | Cambridge Analytica scandal, Facebook’s role in Brexit & a revealing lunch
This episode features Carole Cadwalladr, a journalist for the Guardian and Observer in the United Kingdom. Carole worked for a year with whistleblower Christopher Wylie to publish her report into Cambridge Analytica. The investigation resulted in Mark Zuckerberg being called before Congress and Face…
Listen to Carole Cadwalladr on Google Podcasts

Listen to Carole Cadwalladr on Spotify.

Shaunagh talks to Carole Cadwalladr

This episode features Carole Cadwalladr, a journalist for the Guardian and Observer in the United Kingdom. Carole worked for a year with whistleblower Christopher Wylie to publish her report into Cambridge Analytica. The investigation resulted in Mark Zuckerberg being called before Congress and Facebook losing more than $100 billion from its share price.

This episode's sponsors:

Noa
⚡ The first 100 people to use this link (or use discount code TRIBE50) will get a free week of Noa Premium, plus 50% off the annual price: ⚡

Credits

Hosted and produced by Shaunagh Connaire and edited by Ryan Ferguson.

Episode transcript

Shaunagh Connaire

This episode is sponsored by NOA, an audio journalism app obsessed with helping you know more about news that matters. The first 100 people to visit newsoveraudio.com/mediatribe, will get a week free to listen to articles from Foreign Affairs, Bloomberg and the Irish Times plus 50% off

Shaunagh Connaire

Welcome to Media Tribe, the podcast that's on a mission to restore faith in journalism. I'm Shaunagh Connaire, an award-winning journalist with over 10 years of experience working for some of the biggest news outlets in the industry. Every week, I'm going to introduce you to some of the world's most respected journalists, filmmakers and media executives and you're going to hear the story behind the storyteller. You'll get a sense of the integrity and hard graft that's involved in journalism and hopefully you'll go away feeling that this craft is worth valuing.

Carole Cadwalladr

There are these elections of 2016, we really had no idea at the time how completely vulnerable our democracies were. The evidence of what happened in those elections is locked away in Facebook servers and they are still absolutely refusing to give it up.

Shaunagh Connaire

My guest today is Carole Cadwalladr, The journalist from The Guardian and Observer who broke the Cambridge Analytica scandal. Carole's investigation resulted in Mark Zuckerberg being called before Congress and Facebook losing more than $100 billion from its share price.

Shaunagh Connaire

Carole Cadwalladr, you're so welcome to the Media Tribe

Carole Cadwalladr

Thanks. Hi, Shaunagh. Thanks so much for having me on. I enjoy listening to these so it's a bit intimidating actually.

Shaunagh Connaire

Oh, not at all, Carole. Well, we eventually pressed record after a half an hour chat talking about all of our mutual friends, a lot of them Irish, but actually it was Dorothy Bern from Channel Four who said, "You must get Carole on the podcast." I'm delighted she did.

Carole Cadwalladr

Oh, thanks so much. Thanks Dorothy.

Shaunagh Connaire

Carole, do you want to kickstart the interview and tell us how you got into journalism?

Carole Cadwalladr

How did I get into journalism? I got into journalism, in fairness, I had no idea how to get into journalism. At the time there were two journalism courses that you could do at City and at Cardiff, but they were really expensive so that was out of, you couldn't even borrow, you couldn't get student loans in those days. It's so long ago. And so I really had no idea. I love newspapers and I wanted to write, but I also very much, I kind of, I was really lucky. I was a student at a very exciting time when the Berlin Wall came down and Nelson Mandela was let out of jail and the Soviet Union started collapsing and Europe sort of just sort of opened up before our very eyes.

Carole Cadwalladr

And so I was very like right, I'm so not going to get a career job, I'm going to earn some money waitressing and save up and then I'm going to go traveling. And that's what I did. And then actually I was lucky enough, I won a travel writing competition and that gave me sort of I trained to get cross Europe and it also gave me a bit of an in in terms of writing. Actually, I had my first published article in the Independent and that enabled me to get into writing guide books. I had sort of a great few years contributing to a guide book on the former Soviet Union and the first one, the timeout one to Prague. And then I did one on the first kind of post-war book on Lebanon, which I absolutely loved and lived in Beirut for I think, six months or so and traveled around the Middle East and got into all sorts of scrapes.

Carole Cadwalladr

I suppose I ought to think about trying to get some actual career. I still advertised, there was a graduate trainee scheme at the Telegraph and I think they were just a bit confused by me. Because afterwards they were sort of like, "You know this was designed for 21 year olds." It was quite hilarious because I was not there, I was not a natural and obvious choice for the Telegraph in any respect, but they gave me a place on their graduate training scheme and paid for me to go to journalism school in Newcastle. And I did a stint at PA and then landed in the Telegraph newsroom, actually. I was very fortunate in that way, in that I sort of, they gave me a sort of that grounding in new journalism, which although I never wanted to be a news journalist, has of course been incredibly helpful ever since so thank you the Telegraph.

Shaunagh Connaire

What age were you then, Carole? If you don't mind me asking.

Carole Cadwalladr

I think I was 25, 26, I think.

Shaunagh Connaire

That's funny. That's when I became a journalist as well so there's nothing wrong with being old coming to the party.

Carole Cadwalladr

It's all coming to play now. I was fascinated by authoritarian countries and countries where all of law had broken down completely and the whole sort of post-Soviet space. And I saw it up close, and learned my bits of, I speak it very badly, but I do speak some Russian, I do speak some Arabic.

Shaunagh Connaire

Interesting. At what point then, Carole, did you move to the Guardian slash the Observer.

Carole Cadwalladr

I was in the newsroom at the Telegraph and actually, I found this sort of birth doing a sort of travel news stuff over on the travel desk and that was, I had a great time there. And it was sort of, it was every week just sort of finding news stories, but it was also doing sort of stunts and all sorts of silly things. But I think it's fair to say, the bit of the paper, of course, which I sort of liked was most aspirational towards really at that time was probably the foreign desk, but the foreign desk at the day, Telegraph at that time, was sort of like, it was a sort of offshoot in Eton. It was very male.

Carole Cadwalladr

The idea that Carole from a Cardiff comprehensive was going to find, the Telegraph at that time was sort of run like it was a bit like the sort of armed services or something where the officer class, there was an officer class at the senior editorial level Boris Johnson was a columnist on at that time. And then there were kind of infantry troops myself who were a bit more diverse. But there was never a sort of real Telegraph I felt with correctly, I think. And anyway, they did a voluntary redundancy scheme at some point and so I took us sort of small amount of money and ran and then I wrote a novel.

Shaunagh Connaire

I did, I knew about that. Yes.

Carole Cadwalladr

Again, it was kind of an incredibly useful thing to do because fundamentally my sort of, one of my primary interests is storytelling and the most effective ways of storytelling. And so I did find, it was a huge intellectual challenge writing this and figuring out form and structure and voice and plots and all that sort of stuff and the mechanics of really making things emotional. And so I do feel it was a sort of useful exercise in that way. But anyway, it was after doing that, that I found a little in at the Observer and eventually persuaded them to give me my dream job actually. It was the only kind of job in journalism I sort of wanted at that point, which was a feature writer across the Observer, which was a sort of a newspaper I'd always loved. And yeah, so I felt sort of very lucky to fall up there. And with this sort of mandate, which is because it's so tiny, the Observer, is you do end up writing across all bits of the paper. It's kind of, it's sort of endlessly interesting in that way.

Shaunagh Connaire

Extraordinary. You're very well known, Carole, obviously for being an investigative journalist, a trooper of an investigative journalist. How did you kind of make that crossover from features to really hardcore investigative journalism?

Carole Cadwalladr

It's very accidental and it was not something, and I very much, I really didn't understand that what I was doing was investigative journalism actually. And I kind of looked back and see actually, well for a good sort of 10, 15 years, actually there have been things which I was doing, which were investigations, but I always looked at it through the optics of features. It was always as much as part about telling the story, that's always been a big part and investigative journalists for me were always, they were a sort of exotic breed. I didn't know any and I didn't know what their tricks were. That was the sort of funny thing, actually, when I started on this sort of Cambridge Analytica investigation is that I sort of endlessly was sort of like writings people saying, "Well, teach me how to do investigative journalism."

Shaunagh Connaire

Really?

Carole Cadwalladr

Yeah, I wrote to David Lee, who is the ex-investigations editor at the Guardian because he tweeted, he said, "This is an amazing piece of investigative journalism," after my first piece. I was like, "Is it? Go on."

Shaunagh Connaire

That is hilarious, Carole. You'd actually no idea you'd just become an investigative journalist.

Carole Cadwalladr

Yeah, and then it turned out and then funnily enough, actually, I remember I did an interview about a year later. Oh, I did this interview and I remember listening back to it. And at the time I sort of, I very much played it down. I was like, oh, I'm just a feature writer who fell into it. But actually I kind of thought, you know what? That's not actually. I did go undercover at Amazon warehouse, for example, sort of five years previously.

Shaunagh Connaire

well , it leads me so easily onto the next question, which is, the great parts of the interview whereby you get to talk about a project that's had significant impact. If you would do us all the kind of honor, Carole, of talking about your Cambridge Analytica investigation, that changed everything.

Carole Cadwalladr

It does still sort of amaze me, but this, for a long time, Cambridge Analytica was just this sort of weird hobby that I had that a few weird hobbyists around the world understood and we talked about. And on the internet, it was this sort of something of a subject of derision amongst tech journalists, for example. Ha, ha, people would, the tech bros, they deleted a lot of them actually afterwards, but there was a lot of kind of ha, ha, ha, has Cambridge Analytica succeeded in bending your mind waves? There was an awful lot of people who were very much like, the company, all companies do that. They didn't do anything special. Even as I was sort of gathering this incredible evidence, actually about all sorts of extraordinary and quite illegal things that they'd done.

Carole Cadwalladr

It's just been such a long process. It's kind of four years in now and there's still an enormous amount of evidence and material and things which haven't come out and there's still an awful lot more that we need to find out about. But on the plus side of it is, is that people do know. This funny, weird hobby that Cambridge Analytica has now become notorious and it did cause Facebook a lot of pain and it continues to cause them a lot of pain. And I think as a result of it, a lot of people did suddenly become aware of the fact that all this personal information that they give out online is being harvested up by these tech companies and it can be used in invisible and really quite nefarious ways against them. And that many of the things that we see happening in the world today and the people who are in power are a consequence of that. That's the plus side.

Shaunagh Connaire

Just in case our audience don't know what that story is. I think people will, but Cambridge Analytica is a company that you came across that was harvesting millions upon millions of people's data online on Facebook. And as you say, using them in nefarious activities, such as changing our behavior and our mindsets and it affected how people voted in the end. And I think, you were doing this in the run up to Brexit and so that essentially was a referendum in the dark because we didn't know what was happening. And you exposed all of this, Carole, yourself single handedly and you had the likes of Cambridge Analytica threatening to sue you and Facebook. Were they threatening to sue you personally or the Guardian, Carole?

Carole Cadwalladr

Well both. Cambridge Analytica were threatening to sue the Guardian Observer and me personally. Yeah. it was very difficult. It was very serious. And there was moments when we thought we wouldn't be able to continue our reporting. And so kind of it is worth remembering that actually. I published my first articles at the end of 2016, beginning of 2017 and then that kicked off these threatening letters from them. And then it took me, I found this Christopher Wylie, this ex-employee who became our whistleblower, but it really was. I worked with him for over a year and during which we were dealing with these legal threats before we could publish kind of his further revelations. There was a huge process involved in bringing out this story and this evidence and yeah and then at the final moment you have Facebook sends us this threatening legal letter.

Carole Cadwalladr

Which was, it's kind of funny because it was this terrible moment, the day before publication, all of the hoops we jumped through, we'd got so far and we're nearly there and then to have them come along and sort of send us this threatening letter, it was this terrible, terrifying moment of oh no. And then that really transmuted itself into real indignation actually on our behalf and anger actually, because they did their sort of PR stunt us the night before to try and spoil publication. After, we go through, I don't know, there's a lot of checks and balances you have to do before you can publish a story like this, including these extensive right to replies. And we'd sent those out in good faith. And then Facebook tried to spike our story the day before and send us this threatening legal letter. I think it's kind of it's useful sort of hanging on to some bits of your outrage and Facebook's behavior through this entire story has been absolutely egregious.

Carole Cadwalladr

There are many aspects of it they still have not been held to account for. For example, Facebook was fined a $100 million by the SEC in the United States and it settled with them, but it was found guilty for example, of lying to journalists. One of those journalists with Facebook actually lied to about Cambridge Analytica was me and these tech companies, they get away with so much and they came out of that with a 100 million fine, which has absolutely nothing to Facebook. And it was also as a result of our work was the FTC, the Federal Trade Commission in America fined record breaking historic fine of $5 billion.

Carole Cadwalladr

And so it's extraordinary that journalism can have that impact on the one hand. You could see that as some great triumph, but it's not at all because on the day that Facebook got that record breaking historic fine of $5 billion its share price actually went up because it wasn't worse and Facebook can easily afford a $5 billion fine. It's one of the things which kind of absolutely drives me on at the moment is this total lack of accountability and particularly on behalf of these tech platforms.

Shaunagh Connaire

Well, I can't even imagine what those meetings were like before the day you published. It must have been, I've been in meetings where you think you might be sued because you're releasing a controversial film, but to be sued by arguably one of the richest companies in the world is terrifying. For you personally, Carole, because it's your reputation on the line, but also for the Guardian.

Carole Cadwalladr

They were genuinely very, very worried about Cambridge Analytica because thing about Cambridge Analytica was that the ultimate owner of it was Robert Mercer. Who just sort of sounds like a mythical figure, I think these days, but he's a multi-billionaire, incredibly clever. And I think the thing which was in everybody's head, very, very ideologically motivated, that's the thing about Rotman is, the thing that was in everybody's head was what happened to Gorka. Gorka was the US magazine very spicy and out there and it was secretly taken down by a billionaire, an ideologically motivated billionaire called Peter Thiel, who is an ally of Trump as was Robert Mercer. And so there was this real example of how an ideologically but motivated billionaire can destroy a news publication. And there was a lot of internal alarm and fear actually about what we'd gotten ourselves into. And it was a very, very stressful time.

Shaunagh Connaire

Yeah, I have no doubt, Carole. And the thing is, you just strike me as such a resilient woman, that you've continued to do this. You've continued to fight this good fight. You've referred to the likes of Facebook as handmaidens of authoritarianism, which is, as we all know now, very, very true. But back then, not many people were saying that and the work you're doing now, Carole, if you want to kind of delve into that. Facebook have obviously set up their kind of oversight board, but you guys have gone ahead and you're kind of, do you work directly with the real oversight board?

Carole Cadwalladr

Yeah. Basically I've been working with a group of people to set up the real Facebook oversight board as a sort of counter-measure. Facebook have set up something called the Oversight Board, which is a purportedly independent body, which is going to take purportedly independent decisions on very, very minor issues around content moderation. And it's Nick Clegg's special baby actually and they've invested a 130 million into this. It's like fake oversight. It's not properly independent. They've selected every single person on it. And they've set its terms of references of what it can come bring its judgements upon. Yeah, so I've sort of joined forces with a group of academics and civil rights leaders to create the real Facebook oversight board, which is to essentially to be a pain in Facebook's side. And in that it's been very successful in that they tried to destroy us even before we launched in various ways. They act. The thing is the good thing about Facebook is they're very predictable in what they do. So yeah.

Shaunagh Connaire

You're always one step ahead. Well, we've had Maria Ressa on the podcast as well, who obviously a trooper and has been talking about disinformation for years. And I guess she saw the elections in the Philippines and everything that happened there as kind of a petri dish for Trump on what we've now experienced here in the US. But are you working quite closely with likes of Maria on this?

Carole Cadwalladr

Yeah, absolutely. Maria is a kind of key voice that we have on it and Maria is, she's so incredible in so many ways and is facing off really the kind of powers of darkness in these legal actions, which have been taken against her. But yeah, she saw it. It is sort of remarkable. That election in the Philippines, all sorts of stuff happened online. That was a month, I think after Brexit. There are these elections of 2016 that essentially we know we really had no idea at the time how completely vulnerable our democracies were and how the tech platforms essentially had sort of created this incredible vulnerability at the heart of our democracy, which enabled bad actors essentially to do all sorts of things and break all sorts of laws in a completely dark and uncountable ways.

Carole Cadwalladr

And the fact is is that the evidence of what happened in those elections is locked away in Facebook servers and they are still absolutely refusing to give it up. And yes, it felt, I think for sort of four years is that I was really unwilling to give up on that because as far as I was concerned, these really were crime scenes and I really do feel that Facebook has buried that evidence. Future generations, journalists, historians, academics, nobody is able to study what happened. And this sort of unique historical moment where we saw these forces of populism triumph across the world and I think we really do understand now much more about the role that the internet played in that, but we're still not able to do the proper investigation that's required. And that continues to sort of disturb and alarm me actually. And that's very much something I'm still sort of focused on.

Shaunagh Connaire

The Media Tribe podcast is brought to you by NOA, an app I listen to regularly. Like myself, NOA is obsessed with quality journalism and lets you listen to important, curated audio articles from world-class publishers like the Harvard Business Review, the Washington Post and lots more. Their mission is to have listeners like you understand the big issues, get multiple perspectives and go beyond breaking news. NOA is offering the first 100 Media Tribe listeners one week free plus 50% of. Go to newsoveraudio.com/mediatribe or hit the link in the show notes to begin your free trial. That's newsoveraudio.com/mediatribe. And what's more, by supporting NOA, you're massively supporting the Media Tribe podcast and helping me bring you more episodes like this one. Now, back to Carole.

Shaunagh Connaire

And Carole, obviously your Ted Talk was very famous at the time. It went viral where you called out these tech leaders by name. Do you want to talk us through that? And what the lawyers said before that shock? Did they tell you, "That's a terrible idea, Carole," or how did that all pan out?

Carole Cadwalladr

It's so funny, Shaunagh. The bigger deal was the fact is, is that when I started out on the Cambridge Analytica story is that I was absolutely terrified about public speaking and I refused to do public speaking and I always turned down any kind of media invitations or anything like that. And then when I started, that was after I wrote the very first story, I agreed to go on a panel and was absolutely terrified. Talking in public is something I really, I kind of realized I needed to get out and talk about this story, but I found it so personally difficult. And so the idea that I would be able to get up on stage at a Ted conference and make that kind of talk, it was literally unthinkable. It was a huge thing to overcome.

Carole Cadwalladr

The thing about Ted Talks is that it's, you have one shot only. You don't have any notes and you know it's going to be online forever. It's a really, really terrifying kind of combination of things. In terms of calling out those people is I knew that some of them would be there. It's an incredibly powerful sort of arena, an incredible privilege to get that stage, to be able to do that. And I just knew that I had this sort of one opportunity to try and sort of bring that message home and really to and sort of sum up what I sort of really felt so strongly the threat was and to communicate that, because I think in America at the time, people weren't saying that. And it was this thing about coming from Brexit Britain and understanding the ways that our election had been subverted and the ways how absolutely vulnerable the next elections were going to be to similar sorts of distortion. As Shaunagh, it turned out.

Shaunagh Connaire

Exactly. And it was such a powerful talk. We will link to that when we release your episode and everybody also should go and watch The Great Hack on Netflix featuring your good self, Carole, and Christopher Wylie of course, the whistleblower from Cambridge Analytica, who obviously took loads of risks to become that person as well. Carole, last question of the interview, is there a, I'm sure there is, a crazy moment in your career that maybe nobody knows about that you'd like to delve into?

Carole Cadwalladr

I was trying to think about it. I saw that I was trying to think about this and there's just so much. That entire period before we published that story, it was just craziness personified. And there's a lot which hasn't come out about that. But I was thinking of one example of that. And I thought the fact that actually I had these sort of very bizarre and surreal encounters with Alexander Nix, who's actually the CEO of Cambridge Analytica. He was the sort of old Etonian CEO of Cambridge Analytica. Became rather a famous figure. He was revealed in these undercover films offering to solicit prostitutes and all sorts of things for his clients. I had this sort of really very close to publication actually, I found out about this sort of party cryptocurrency launch in Mayfair that I sort of thought that he might be at because it was his business partners who were throwing it.

Carole Cadwalladr

And so I thought, oh, I'll go and gaTe crash and just sort of going on. And so I walked in and the first person I saw at this party was him. And I was like, oh man. I sort of ran around the corner in sort of fear and then I thought, wow, he's not going to recognize me. It's not like I'm on television or anything. I sort of thought I would be fine. And so I sort of went round about. Anyway and then I felt, so I was chatting away to somebody and then I felt this tap on my shoulder. And he said, "Oh Carole," and it was Alexander Nix standing there. He said, "Carole, it's very interesting to see you." And I reacted in shock and sort of, I was like, oh no, I've being totally busted.

Carole Cadwalladr

Anyway, and I ended up, of course he was sort of very charming. We ended up having a long conversation and then I actually ended up going for lunch with him very shortly before we went to publication and it was this, I haven't written about it, but I was very, very conflicted about whether I should go and meet him. And I was very, very aware of these huge, long right to replies that were about to go into his company.

Shaunagh Connaire

During that lunch, Carole, then I'm assuming that was all off record and you didn't learn anything new.

Carole Cadwalladr

At the party when I was having this conversation, so it was this kind of extraordinary conversation with Alexandra Nix, weeks before publication of this material whilst he was trying to sue us. And this was being taken very, very seriously by the Guardian. And he said to me, he says, "I don't know, Carole, the thing is every article you write," he said, "we get a whole flurry of new business. It's been wonderful for business." Which was this amazing moment because you can't actually sue somebody unless you can show damage. I was sort of like I went home, I have to say and wrote a memo to my editors immediately and was sort of like, actually I think this really helps us.

Shaunagh Connaire

Wow. That is extraordinary. Oh my God. Well, the audacity of, of him to say that. I'm sure he had quite the shock in the morning, then whenever he got your right of replies and you went to publication.

Carole Cadwalladr

I think this thing about coming to investigative journalism, not as a traditional investigative journalism, I think maybe I've just struggled with the ethics and complexities of it. I spent a long time interviewing people. That was one of the things that I did. And so I'm always really interested in the sort of psychological and human motivations behind things. And the same for me, Alexander Nix was never just some sort of cartoon baddie, doing bad things. I was genuinely intrigued by the sort of bigger picture. And I was genuinely conflicted by kind of exposing people and having these really consequential impacts upon their lives and their businesses and the employees and all of the rest of it. I know that some people were sort of who were involved in the story, were sort of cheering the air and all the rest of it. And I actually, I went home the day that I did that, I went home and I re-read Janet Malcolm's The Journalist and the Murderer, it's all about the troubled ethics of journalism and the role of the journalist. And it's something I kind of think about a lot, I think.

Shaunagh Connaire

Well that just says a lot about you, Carole, as a person and as a journalist, as a very ethical journalist and maybe it was a great thing that you came to this story, not from a traditional investigative background, because I have no doubt that you were asking very different questions to somebody who'd maybe been covering an investigative beat for years. We are in the position we're in now. We know all about Cambridge Analytica, thanks to your fantastic work and reporting and I really encourage all of our audience to go and follow your work on Twitter and check out the real Facebook oversight board. Really, really interesting to follow you guys on Twitter as well. Well, thank you so much, Carole, for coming on the podcast. It's such an honor. You will go down as one of those journalists in history that really changed things and shocked the system so well done you.

Carole Cadwalladr

Oh, thank you, Shaunagh. That's so kind. Thank you. Thanks for having me on.

Shaunagh Connaire

If you like what you heard on this episode of Media Tribe, that's very good news because I am going to be dropping new shows every week and every month on my new Media Tribe spotlight series. Also, if you haven't already, make sure to take a listen to previous shows with some legendary folk in the industry. And as ever, please, please, please do leave me a rating and review as it really does help other people find this podcast. Finally, if you do have any guest suggestions, drop me a note on Twitter, I'm @shaunagh with a G-H or @shaunaghconnaire on Instagram. And again, that's with a G-H. Right, that's it. See you soon. This episode was edited by Ryan Ferguson.