Greg Williams
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Shaunagh talks to Greg Williams
Greg is the Editor-in-Chief of WIRED UK. He is responsible for all aspects of content including print digital, online, events, consulting, podcasts, video and other publishing ventures as well as supporting all commercial aspects of the business.
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Credits
Hosted and produced by Shaunagh Connaire and edited by Ryan Ferguson.
Episode transcript
Shaunagh Connaire
This episode is sponsored by NOA, an app I listen to regularly. The first 100 people to visit newsoveraudio.com/mediatribe will get a week free to listen to articles from the Economist, Bloomberg and the Financial Times, plus 50% off. Welcome to Media Tribe, the podcast that's on a mission to restore faith in journalism. I'm Shaunagh Connaire, an award-winning journalist with over 10 years of experience working for some of the biggest news outlets in the industry. Every week, I'm going to introduce you to some of the world's most respected journalists, filmmakers and media executives, and you're going to hear the story behind the storyteller. You'll get a sense of the integrity and hard graft that's involved in journalism, and hopefully you'll go away feeling that this craft is worth valuing.
Greg Williams
And then we got to Euston, and I got into a taxi to get to the CPI. And I got in the back of the taxi, and there's sitting Boris Johnson, the current prime minister, and he basically wanted to know who I was. And I remember him saying to me, when I told him what I was there for, he just looks at me and said, "Doing a job on Hague, are you?"
Shaunagh Connaire
My guest this week is Editor in Chief of Wired UK, Greg Williams, Greg Williams, welcome to the Media Tribe.
Greg Williams
Thanks so much for having me. Glad to be here.
Shaunagh Connaire
You're most welcome. It's lovely to connect, Greg. We have a mutual friend in common, a very awesome Irish woman, [Margareta 00:01:31]. So I'm so thrilled she put us in touch and recommended you for the podcast.
Greg Williams
Shout out to Margareta. She's awesome.
Shaunagh Connaire
So Greg, do you want to kick start our conversation and tell our audience how you started off in journalism and became the Editor in Chief of Wired UK?
Greg Williams
I didn't know anyone in journalism growing up. I certainly didn't have any kind of connections in the industry. And I always knew I wanted to write, and the idea of journalism definitely appeal to me. And I remember I was working one summer as a painter and decorator or an order picker. And the order picking job was at night, and doing bits of painting and decorating during the day. And I sent I think it was around 20-24 letters out to various publications, to BBC, to all the national newspapers, and even on the local radio stations. And these were all type-written at the time. I didn't have a word processor or anything like that. I didn't get a single response, except from [Rego Chiltern 00:02:37] up in Luton, bless them, who interviewed me. Nothing came of it, but at least it was nice to know that any of the letters had arrived.
Greg Williams
And it did make me realize that this was going to be tough. It is tough for young people without any kind of connection to break in. Then I kind of went off to uni and applied for all the things you're supposed to apply for, the postgraduate schemes. Nothing came of that. And then I thought, "Right, you know what, I'm going to go off and write a great novel," disappeared off to Paris where I taught English for a few months. And then I saw an advert for an editorial assistant for a magazine called Blitz, which is no longer with us. It was a kind of like, what they called at the time, a style title, much like the Face. And I came back to London, interviewed and was fortunate enough to get the job, and then really went from there.
Greg Williams
And I learned that a few years later the Esquire was launching in the UK. And at the time, I was very, very influenced by all that new journalism and Gay Talese, and those kinds of writers. And they'd all worked for Esquire at the time. So I thought, "You know what, that's what I really want." I was interviewed by a guy called Lee Eisenberg, who at the time had been the Editor in Chief of Esquire in the '80s and '90s, actually late '80s, early '90s I guess. Really was kind of quite a significant figure in newer publishing at that time, and was just delighted to get the job. And then from there, climbed up the ladder, went to a title called Arena. Again, RIP. I seemed to have this effect on title, which was kind of, again, a high-end men's title, lots of long-form writing, but also style and things like that.
Greg Williams
After that, ended up in New York where I worked for a while for a guy called Felix Dennis, lots of good stories there. And then ended up at Conde Nast where I worked a title called Details. And then heard that there was an opportunity at Wired that was launching in the UK. And I was really intrigued by Wired because it seemed to me to be a title with real opportunity and room to grow. It seemed to be really examining the way in which the world was changing. And so again, applied and was fortunate enough to get an interview and got the job. So I became deputy there. Did that for seven years, and then I've been Editor in Chief for the UK edition for just over four years now. So yeah, potted history.
Shaunagh Connaire
Amazing. Well, it's a great story because it was a lot of rejection in there, Greg, and a lot of RIP stories in there, but with magazines. I mean, you work in the publishing industry. It is certainly an industry that has taken a battering over the years and in particular last year gone by. And I'm so glad we can now say last year, by the way, by 2020. But I'd like to point out that I've read that Wired, under your leadership, had revenue growth in 2020, which is kind of unheard of. Do you want to tell us about your secret sauce?
Greg Williams
Well, I think we diversified very, very early. So obviously, we were thinking very clearly about there being a digital future from day one. But then we started thinking about, "Okay, where else can we take this brand? What are the opportunities?" And at the time, events wasn't something all publishers thought about. There were B2B events that one would see, but there wasn't a consumer title like Wired that really just thinking about, "Okay, how do you start putting on live events and how can you create assets around that? And how can you leverage those?" So we moved into events pretty early, and then we've really started thinking about, "Okay, what else can we do with this brand? How can we reach audiences in new ways and what do they want from us?"
Greg Williams
And so we've launched other titles, such as our annual trends guide now, which has become something that has been a huge success. We have a consulting business in which we work with large organizations to help them prepare for the future. We have a newsletter business that we're just establishing at the moment. Obviously, podcasts, videos. It's sort of slightly trite to say, "Yeah, we've been thinking about this for a long time." But we have. We put into practice fairly early. We've done things like affiliate marketing. I think we've done it in a way that was really integral to the brand. Meaning we're not just trying to get to the top of the rankings with everything, but we're actually trying to think about how do we offer authority and integrity and real quality to what we do.
Greg Williams
So, the reviews will only ever be reviews that we feel editorially are absolutely ones that we stand behind. It doesn't matter what commercial considerations there are within the business, we want to make sure that the readers are the number one priority for everything we do. So yeah, I guess a way of summing it up would be just to think, "Okay, we're thinking about the audiences. We're thinking about where they are. And we're thinking about how we can develop new opportunities around that that are really, really natural things for us to do." And having that integrity and quality.
Greg Williams
So our events, people within the business wouldn't probably like me to say this, but we probably spent a lot more money than we need to in some ways on things like production and food and those kinds of areas. So I think just adding all those different layers on, so they're mixing with their peers, they're mixing with some of the smartest people in their fields. They're also having a good time in a nice place with a nice lunch box. I know it sounds silly, but I think just having a real sense of the entire process from being served maybe an advert for that event to actually leaving it feels like a great experience, and they've got real value from it.
Shaunagh Connaire
Well, that's it. It's the UX you're talking about there. But for our audience, I'm assuming everybody will know what Wired Magazine is. I'm hoping they don't think it's a gadget magazine because it's so far removed from that, I would say. And I would compare it to the likes of Bloomberg, the Economist now and other publications. Because you guys really, really hit on big, big topics. You're looking AI and blockchain and FinTech and space, and in a long-form format as well. And so you really kind of go into big, big journalism. Was your main job when you left the deputy editorship in 2017, was it to kind of merge print and digital?
Greg Williams
Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I should have probably finished my previous answer by saying that look, everything has to be underpinned by great journalism. So quality journalism and content that really does intrigue and surprise and entertain and educate people. And yeah. So when I first took the job, we had division between print and digital. And my first job was to make sure that everyone worked across all those things, all those platforms that we have. And I think that the great thing now is if you go onto the editorial floor, there will be editors who maybe are... They're commissioning a story for their section on the digital or in the print title maybe. They're writing a story for digital, they're recording a podcast, they're writing a script for a video. They're also curating a stage for an event.
Greg Williams
And I think that a lot of people talk about, "Oh my goodness, I wouldn't come into journalism now." But I think in some ways, although it's still very challenging, and it's still a very challenging situation I think for many publications, I think there's just so many different ways in which people can tell stories now. And the opportunities are enormous. And obviously for many writers, and we see this in the rise of newsletters now and Substack, and platforms like that, there is a way of reaching audiences in a way that we've never had before. So, it really is a very exciting time, I think. And if you can kind of pull all those elements together and make them all feel like they have the same voice, they have the same perspective and they have the same sensibility, that's good.
Greg Williams
Just to answer the first part of your question around why it is, you're absolutely right. I mean, that's certainly the way that I think about it. I think of us as something akin to the Economist or Bloomberg or the FT, something like that. But I think the way I would sort of shape it is to think that we're just about how the world is changing. So, some people are interested in that hardcore tech, so the AI, the blockchain, those kinds of things. We do cover that. But also, we're very interested in what it is to be a human being in the era of technology, when technology defines us. So we might have a story on people who have become phenomenons on Tik Tok through dancing, and what that says about the culture, and that happened during COVID and how that became the phenomenon during COVID.
Greg Williams
We might have a story on... We do this month on mRNA vaccines and what that means moving forward for other kinds of treatments and vaccination for other serious conditions, such as HIV. This is a whole new platform. It's not just something that's going to help us with COVID vaccination. I think it's just a way of looking forward. And I think that technology, whether we're looking at policy around regulation or taxation from a business perspective, or whether we're looking at it from a cultural perspective and the way that people are telling stories now using digital, it is the central way or the kind of core way now that the world is being shaped.
Shaunagh Connaire
It's something that struck me when I did read that you had revenue growth last year. And I wondered if there was something in the fact that what you do is give people a window into the future at Wired. And that's what we desperately craved last year, just some level of what the hell is going to happen in the next few months and the next few years. Just we all kind of looked towards experts and really craved that level of information and that level of journalism. So, that's why Wired is a wonderful publication under the Conde Nast brand. Next question, Greg, heading to the bigger part of the interview, but is there a story, or maybe it's a project at Wired, that you're particularly proud of?
Greg Williams
Yeah. So I think that anything that has impact in the world obviously is important. So our science writer, Matt Reynolds, published a story last year that I thought was incredibly impactful. It was around the fact that Amazon was selling publications that advocated the use of certain caustic substances in children with autism. When it was published, then Amazon actually removed those titles from sale. We had another story about YouTube and the way that pedophiles were using timestamps on YouTube on certain videos to alert each other to material that they might want to view, and that caused YouTube to change its policies. So I think that that kind of thing can have impact in the world. I also think that clearly, our job, as any journalist's job, is to interpret the world and understand what is happening, why it's happening and to try and offer up a perspective on what might happen in the future.
Greg Williams
And I think that, to your earlier point, one of the things that I think does benefit us is that we tend to be quite optimistic. So we do think that climate change, clearly the greatest challenge of our times, but with the right government partnerships and the right kind of corporate partnerships, the right level of investment, the right level of innovation in science and research, and just global cooperation, it is something that we can get to net zero by 2050. Now, is there a plan yet? Not really. We need governments, and hopefully the event in Glasgow, COP events, later in the year will put a framework around this. But I think that Wired as a title tends be curious about the world and excited about the world. And I think that given we live in pretty challenging times, it's nice to feel that there is some hope out there. That's not to say by the way that, particularly digitally, if we see people that we feel aren't doing the right thing, then we will not certainly pull our punches.
Shaunagh Connaire
What I really like about Wired is the fact that many of your articles, as you kind of alluded to there, offer solutions. There is this kind of sense of solution journalism at the end. I mean, one article I recently read was about artificial intelligence and the lack of diversity in that sphere. It's dominated [inaudible 00:15:35] by elite white men, Greg. And your article in Wired talked about a lady of color who'd been fired from Google and how problematic that was, because the way in which AI is used is of course it will be used in the criminal justice system, and it will be used in healthcare and all these other various places where people of colour will absolutely be affected.
So it makes no sense to have a room full of white men working in this sphere. So, I love at the end of that article that you offered, it wasn't you, it was one of your colleagues, offered up solutions of regulation and workers forming a union. But also, it really struck me that you're absolutely not afraid to pull the punches on big tech who arguably you're writing about all the time. So the big players like IBM, Google, obviously Facebook, and Amazon, as you say, as well. So that's really integral to your core, isn't it?
Greg Williams
Yeah. And I think our job, as any journalist, is to call it as it is, and to really examine the world in all its flaws. And although we are optimistic by nature, I think an area like AI deserves a huge amount of scrutiny. There are incredibly positive things about AI. Weirdly enough, Wired was responsible for a very positive thing. The researchers at Deep Mind and Moorfields Eye Hospital came together because of a Wired article. Pierce Keen, who's an ophthalmologist at Moorfields, wrote a piece about Deep Mind in Wired, approached them to work on a project. And now, they have an amazing piece of research that allows AI to scan retinal scans and look for abnormalities. And that allows people like Pierce to spend a lot more time with their patients. But you're right to really question sort of AI and the ethical implications of it, certainly in built bias against minorities.
Greg Williams
I think you have to also look at areas like taxation, regulation. We're going to see a huge amount of that I think in the coming years, interestingly. China also looking like it's shaping up to sort of take on its so-called big tech companies. So I think that we've reached a point, and I think that maybe you could say that maybe, I don't know, five or six years ago, Wired was maybe, I wouldn't use the word breathless, but certainly it was really kind of much more excited about what big tech was up to. Because it kind of felt like, "Oh, wow, we're on the verge of something really, really exciting." And I think that probably our view now would be that, "Look, we need to actually look at what's happening in the world, the negative impacts of certainly Facebook's behaviour and its inability to regulate its own platform."
Greg Williams
And it's clear that self-regulation doesn't work in Facebook's case. And as long as it keeps returning shareholder value, for whatever reason, the executive group there doesn't seem to really be able to come get hold of the massive kind of negative impact of what's happening on that platform. So yeah, I think that we have to call these these things out, and we're not the only ones. There are many, many other publications, both in the tech sphere and in other publications, that are also calling this out. But generally, we are optimists about the impact that tech can have on the world. That does not mean, however, that we are unwilling to call out bad behaviours when we see them.
Shaunagh Connaire
The Media Tribe podcast is brought to you by NOA, an app that helps you know more about news that matters. NOA is obsessed with quality journalism and lets you listen to important, curated audio articles from world-class publishers, like the Independent, Business Insider and many more. Their mission is to help listeners like you understand the big issues, get multiple perspectives and go beyond breaking news. The first 100 Media Tribe listeners to visit newsoveraudio.com/mediatribe will get one week free plus 50% off thereafter. That's newsoveraudio.com/mediatribe. Or if it's easier, simply hit the link in the show notes. Thank you to everyone who has subscribed to NOA so far. Not only are you supporting quality journalism, but you're also helping me bring you more Media Tribe episodes like this one., Right, back to Greg.
Shaunagh Connaire
Well, I mean, it's so obvious that big tech companies are increasingly taking on a geopolitical role. That to me just feels utterly dangerous. I mean, it is. They've proven it themselves. And is there a sense at Wired that you're going to tackle this quite differently than what's happened in the past? I mean, after the year we've had.
Greg Williams
So yeah, I think you're right. Tech's taking on a geopolitical role. Clearly, there are different versions of the internet developing. There is the state-run version in China, which is a kind of strange hybrid of incredible innovation but always within the oversight of the state. Then you've got the Brussels model, which is a bit more geared towards protection for users and data privacy. Then you've got the original, I guess the Silicon Valley version, which is the open platform, and everyone has access and no gatekeepers, which clearly that hasn't come about. And then you have kind of I guess sort of like a DC version, which is a bit more about the rights of private IP and attempts to... It's the commercial internet, if you like.
Greg Williams
And then I guess you could say there is a Russian version, which is almost the spoiler internet. So it takes this kind of flow of information, and they try and try to impact the world in ways that is advantageous to its agenda. And then I think you're also seeing India. So you're seeing a lot of homegrown companies in India really developing very interesting platforms, a huge growth there. And I think that if you're looking to the internet and where there's real opportunity for growth in technology, I think India is going to be the country that I would be really interested to follow in the coming years.
Shaunagh Connaire
Interesting. And I mean, in a journalism context, do you feel that the future looks quite bright in terms of how our industry will fare with technology? I've discussed this on the podcast before, but we have seen so many layoffs from the digital outlets that promised so much back in the day. And it's just so disappointing, and especially for the younger journalists coming through, when they see this, and they think, "Right, maybe that isn't the industry I should enter."
Greg Williams
Yeah. I mean, I think that you still got to look at titles that have... The New York Times was declared DOA just a few years ago. I remember kind of reading the stories about the fact that they were leasing office space to the Mexican telecoms magnet. And people were saying, "It's over." You just look at the amazing growth in subscribers, and they've done that... First of all, okay, they looked at costs and they looked strategically about their business, but then they invested enormously in writers and journalists. And then they thought very differently about like, "Okay, how do we present our journalism and how do those desks work?" So they probably worked with audience growth managers. They worked with data visualization specialists. And it's a different way of working, and it's different from the traditional way of working. Certainly the way I certainly came through.
Greg Williams
But I think that it's really intriguing now to really think about, "Okay, here's a great story. How do we want to tell it? Actually, is this probably better as a video or does it work maybe as a podcast episode? Or could we do something more interesting with the data visualization?" It's not always just about, "Okay, get a reporter to get out there and get some interviews." And I completely understand your point around the fact that it is challenging, and that's why all the publications now need to be thinking about, "Okay, how do we really create passionate advocates for our brand and what we do?" So while there's enormous pressure on all of us I think to widen the top of that funnel and get as many people reading and get as large an audience as possible, watching videos and all that stuff, that's incredibly important obviously.
Greg Williams
But I think that further down that funnel are a group of people who are really passionate about the product and what you do, and the writers and the storytelling, and the various ways in which you do it. And you only have to look at the way that the New York Times has spun off the crossword, it's spun off its cookery pages as very separate entities that you have to subscribe to. You look at the enormous growth in the New Yorker, which has really just doubled down on amazing reporting and investigations. And I think that there is real sense in which, because there is so much content out there, that actually if you can do stuff that really resonates with people, and it has, as I say or always bang on about, integrity or authority and quality, and it has your imprint on it as a brand, then I think there is real opportunity. But I think you have to have all those pieces in play.
Shaunagh Connaire
Yeah, well, I think it's going to be really interesting to see in a post-Trump era if the New York Times, if that growth trajectory continues in that direction. I hope, and I think it will. Last question, Greg, always a bit of crack, and we encourage all of our guests to be very open and reveal all the juicy details that have never been revealed before. But is there a crazy bonkers moment in your career that has happened to you that you'd like to delve into?
Greg Williams
Well, yeah. I mean, there's been lots of... So I started my career. I wanted to be a long-form profile writer, because I'd read people like all the office people, [inaudible 00:26:10]. And so I did a lot of that. So I've got a lot of those kinds of stories that I won't dive onto because I think they're anecdotes, not stories. But the one I was thinking about earlier on today, funnily enough, was around... Gosh, when would this have been? I guess it was around '96-'97, maybe '98, and William Hague became leader of the conservative party. And I sort of watched him go to the Notting Hill Carnival, and he wore a baseball cap, and he was trying to really connect with people and he wanted to be a new kind of Tory leader.
Greg Williams
He was a man of the people. But I think actually, in retrospect, he was really trying to modernize the party. And anyway, I thought, "Great. I'd love to spend some time with him." So his press teams sort of seemed to think this was a good idea because I was working at Arena at the time. And I went up with him to the CBI conference in Birmingham. And first of all, there was all this... I think he was with Sebastian Coe, who was one of his chief advisors. And I think George Osborne at the time might've been his advisor as well. And there was all this kind of confusion with the tickets, and he nearly got kicked out of first class and the ticket collector was... The whole thing kind of just turned into this rather bad journey.
Greg Williams
And I was trying to get time with him. And me and the photographer were thrown out and sort of sent into the regular coaches. And then we got to Euston, and I got into a taxi to get to the CBI. And I got in the back of the taxi, and there's sitting Boris Johnson, the current prime minister. And he basically wanted to know who I was. And I remember him saying to me, when I told him what I was there for, he just looks at me, he said, "Doing a job on the Hague, are you?" And it was kind of that kind of classics of journalist recognition of what was going on. And obviously he was at the Telegraph at the time as a columnist. We got to CBI and Hague was going to give the big speech.
Greg Williams
He was the new leader of the conservative party. And I remember, I think it was before the speech... It was before the speech. He's in the green room, and there's various people there from business. And I remember Bill Morris came in, who at the time was the leader of the Transport and General Workers Union. And Bill Morris is a big, imposing man, tall man. Anyway, so Bill Morris comes in and sort of Morris approaches Hague to say hello to him. And Hague just takes a step backwards, because Morris has kind of quite an imposing figure. And as he takes a step backwards, he falls back into this glass table and kind of cracks this glass table. And I think George Osborne's pulling him out of this table. It was this very sort of undignified moment.
Greg Williams
And I did feel bad for Hague. And then we ended up going back with him, and no one knew who he was. I remember on the platform people saying, "Well, who's that guy? Why is there a big entourage around him?" And then we ended up going back to the House of Commons. And I said to him, "Where are you going tonight?" And he said, "I'm going to the MOBOs, the Music of Black Origin awards." And it seemed like this very unlikely evening for a leader of the conservative party. And to me, that just reflected... I felt bad for him because it was just this terrible litany of calamities.
Greg Williams
But he was also trying to modernize. He was wanting to go to the MOBOs that evening. But as a journalist, you just have to write what you see. And it was one of those just gifts. All I had to do was write down what had happened that day. And it just ended up being this really, really enjoyable story because I didn't have to do anything. I just had to say, "This happened, then that happened." But yeah, I think in retrospect, I think he'll go down as someone who was probably a man before his time.
Shaunagh Connaire
Brilliant. Well, it's brilliant. Thank you so much, Greg, for indulging me and taking us through all your brilliant work at Wired and what you guys are up to, and we really appreciate it. And so thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Greg Williams
Not at all. Thanks so much for having me. It's a lot of fun.
Shaunagh Connaire
If you like what you heard on this episode of Media Tribe, that's very good news because I'm going to be dropping new shows every week and every month on my new Media Tribe Spotlight series. Also, if you haven't already, make sure to take a listen to previous shows with some legendary folk in the industry. And as ever, please, please, please do leave me a rating and review as it really does help other people find this podcast. Finally, if you do have any guest suggestions, drop me a note on Twitter. I'm @Shaunagh, with a GH, or @ShaunaghConnaire on Instagram. And again, that's with a GH. That's it. See you soon. This episode was edited by Ryan Ferguson.
