Gretchen Carlson SPOTLIGHT
Media TribeListen to Gretchen Carlson on Spotify.
Shaunagh talks to Gretchen Carlson
This is the first of the Media Tribe Spotlight series where every month we'll be discussing a big issue in our industry with a high profile guest.
This month features ex-Fox News anchor, Gretchen Carlson. Carlson is the fearless journalist who publicly accused the then CEO of Fox news Roger Ailes of pervasive sexual harassment in the workplace and subsequently paved the way for the #MeToo movement.
Carlson is now a special contributor for PEOPLE TV and host of the new daily news podcast “Get The News With Gretchen Carlson” on Quake Media. Carlson is also the author of the New York Times bestseller “Be Fierce” and “Getting Real,” and co-founded the non-profit Lift Our Voices to end the silencing of harassment victims through forced arbitration and non-disclosure agreements (NDAs).
Carlson was named one of Time Magazine’s “100 Most Influential People in the World” and is a member of the TIME’S UP Global Leadership Board.
Episode credits
Hosted and produced by Shaunagh Connaire and edited by Ryan Ferguson.
Episode transcript
Shaunagh Connaire
Welcome to Media Tribe, the podcast that’s on a mission to restore faith in journalism. I’m Shaunagh Connaire, an award winning journalist with over ten years of experience working for some of the biggest news outlets in the industry. Every week I’m going to introduce you to some of the world’s most respected journalists, filmmakers and media executives and you’re going to hear the story behind the storyteller. You’ll get a sense of the integrity and hard graft that’s involved in journalism and hopefully you’ll go away feeling that this craft is worth valuing.
This spotlight episode is part of the Media Tribe’s mission to have upfront and honest conversations about some of the most critical topics in our field.
On July 6th 2016 Gretchen Carlson publicly brought allegations against Roger Ailes, the CEO of Fox News alleging pervasive sexual harassment.
She toppled an empire encouraging other Fox News women to come forward about their experiences of sexual harassment involving Ailes and she paved the way for the METOO movement which didn’t go mainstream until 2017.
Gretchen now runs a non-profit called Lift Our Voices, she’s a special contributor for PEOPLE, the TV show and she also hosts a daily podcast called Get the News with Gretchen Carlson which you should all tune into.
Shaunagh Connaire
Gretchen Carlson, welcome to the Media Tribe.
Gretchen Carlson
Thanks for having me.
Shaunagh Connaire
It's so lovely to kind of meet you in person, Gretchen. I wonder if you could tell me who Gretchen Carlson was before that 6th of July date in 2016.
Gretchen Carlson
I was a mother. I was a successful journalist who had clawed my way to the top of the industry. I was a former classical violinist. I was a graduate of Stanford University. I also studied at Oxford University. Yeah, that's who I was. I was a philanthropist. Yeah, there was a long list of things that were on my resume. Never expecting to add poster child for sexual harassment in the workplace onto that. That's not something that you really aspire to, but it's something that ended up happening in my life.
Shaunagh Connaire
And it's worth noting that you were Miss America, and also, you worked as a journalist with CBS, I believe, before you moved to Fox News. Wasn't that right?
Gretchen Carlson
I did. I worked at CBS for five years. I was hired as a correspondent, I traveled the world doing stories, and then I was promoted to do the Saturday morning Early Show, which was always my goal, to do a morning national television show. And before that, I spent 20 years in the trenches. I moved all across the United States to different local cities and local markets, really working my way up.
Shaunagh Connaire
Amazing. So who is Gretchen after that date? Can you kind of tell me about your life since you made those public allegations against the CEO of Fox News?
Gretchen Carlson
Well, I would say that the constant is that I've always been a hard worker. And so that really kicked in no matter before July 6, 2016 or after. I've always been a gutsy competitive person, and that really helped me a lot in making the decision to go ahead with that. But I would say that I've added a lot of other new things to my resume. I'm now a massive advocate for changing laws in our country and speaking out on behalf of women. That's really become my mission in life, although I still have all of the other things under my belt as well. I'm still a journalist, I just signed a new deal to do a People television show, and I just started a daily news podcast, and I'm still a mom.
Gretchen Carlson
So all of those things are still the same. I think the constant is the hard work and dedication that I've always put into everything that I do in my life, and realizing that sexual harassment in the workplace was a pervasive epidemic, not only in the United States, but across the world, and that I was going to do everything in my power to change that.
Shaunagh Connaire
Right. So I am going to read a few lines from the lawsuit, Gretchen, and these are from recordings that you made of encounters you had with Roger Ailes. So I'm quoting directly from your lawsuit, and this is Roger speaking. "I think you and I should have had a sexual relationship a long time ago, and then you'd be good and better, and I'd be good and better." And he added that, "Sometimes, problems are easier to solve that way." He also called you a man-hater and killer and said, "You need to get along with the boys." And then he ogles you in his office and asked you to turn around so he could view your posterior. Gretchen, what can you tell me about those?
Gretchen Carlson
Nothing. It's public knowledge because my lawyers figured out a very crafty strategic way of making my case public, but it never should have been public because of the ways in which companies make women be silenced on these issues. And that's exactly what I'm trying to fight for now, not necessarily so that I can tell you all the nitty gritty details about my 11 years at Fox, although that would be nice. It's really for the millions of women and men out there who are also muzzled through these types of actions, and don't have the same platform or resources that I may have had, or still do have to be able to make these kinds of changes. Those are the people that I'm working for.
Shaunagh Connaire
So ultimately, Gretchen, you signed an NDA, which is a nondisclosure agreement. In the layman terms, it's a gagging order, you were silenced. Do you regret signing that?
Gretchen Carlson
Of course, but you have to remember that hindsight is always 2020. When I signed this agreement four years ago, my settlement agreement was progressive for its time. It was progressive in the sense that the most important thing was that I got a public apology. That never happened because some people would equate a public apology to an admittance of guilt. And so companies never, ever do that. So that in and of itself was the most important thing that I asked for and received. I was also given the opportunity to speak about the issue of sexual harassment, which I've taken full advantage of in trying to pass legislation in the United States and speaking all over the world about this issue, that those two things were monumental.
Gretchen Carlson
Had I known that my actions were going to help spark a cultural revolution and lead to the MeToo movement, and to an international discussion about harassment in the workplace, I would have fought tooth and nail to not sign that nondisclosure. But at the time, first of all, I didn't even know what was going to happen the next minute, much less the next day. So how could I have known that this revolution would have happened? And how could I have known that the next phase of that revolution is to make sure that women and men no longer have to sign NDAs? That's where we are now. But there was no way I could have known that when I did what I did.
Shaunagh Connaire
Well, when you did what you did, you were the first person, as you say, Gretchen, to jump off the cliff. You really took the bull by the horns and took a huge risk. And I'm aware that many people, colleagues, ex-colleagues did turn their back on you and supported Roger Ailes, and people were saying nasty things about you at the time, "Oh, she's in it for the money or the fame," which is completely outlandish. How did that make you feel?
Gretchen Carlson
Yeah, it's the number one thing my lawyers told me to expect. They said you will definitely be maligned. This is what happens to women. And isn't that sad? Isn't that sad that that was just going to be a given? That's really pathetic that we've decided to treat women that way in culture for doing nothing wrong, by the way, simply having the courage to come forward. So I was prepared. I would also say that after being in the news business for almost 30 years at that point, come on, women get far, we're shaking the whole thing than men do with regard to people commenting, especially with the invention of social media, about your appearance and your hair and the clothes you wear and how fat you are and all of that.
Gretchen Carlson
So I had developed a very thick skin from just being in the business, but I will say that never feels good. My paramount concern was actually my children. I really didn't give a damn what anyone thought about me or said about me. I still don't. I really was concerned about how that may rub off on my children. And so that was my paramount concern.
Shaunagh Connaire
Absolutely. And when you did come forward, many, many other women from Fox also came forward with the exact same allegations. I think it was something like two dozen. So that must have felt good at the time. I guess it was nearly affirmation, or just something that you could say," I haven't in any way imagined this." Can you talk to us about that, Gretchen?
Gretchen Carlson
Yeah, I think one of the ways in which we keep women back on this issue is that we make them feel like they're all alone. That's what these silencing mechanisms do. You're made to feel like it's not happening to anyone else. You're also made to feel like you're crazy, because they gaslight you. They make you feel like you're making it up, and that it's really not that bad, and you should just be able to tolerate it and handle it. So again, totally unexpected that the parent company of Fox, 21st Century Fox at the time, decided to start an investigation. I remember when we heard that, it was on the very same day we filed the lawsuit, my attorneys, they were stunned because that usually did not happen. Of course they also put out a statement that they supported their men who worked there, but they also said they were going to do an investigation. And that was huge.
Gretchen Carlson
And I just know how much courage it took for these other women to come forward because it's scary. It's really, really scary to come forward. I had heard through the grapevine that some of them only even told 15 to 20% of what had happened to them. And that was enough. So I will forever be grateful to the other women who joined my solidarity and said, "Me too." It made a huge difference. And just two weeks after I filed my lawsuit, my perpetrator, alleged perpetrator, was fired. And I remember having conversations with my lawyers where they said, "That's never going to happen." I mean, prefiling the case. The company will do everything to protect him, because that's just the way the old school way that it's always worked. And so those women made a difference.
Shaunagh Connaire
Well, good for you, Gretchen, and what you did, by having that courage, you paved the way for many, many other accusers to come forward. I'm thinking about Harvey Weinstein in particular. So your lawsuit was in 2016. So this really was pre MeToo revolution. And I think you shaped and helped mold the revolution that was to come. So good for you. Gretchen, was Fox News the first time that you'd experienced sexual harassment in the workplace in media?
Gretchen Carlson
Unfortunately, no. But here's what I found out. It's a pervasive epidemic. I didn't even know that when I decided to sue. It crosses every socioeconomic line, every profession. It's really quite outrageous. And almost every woman has a story, which is triply sad. The idea that we've all had to endure this. So yes, I had faced this, not at every job. I had some amazing bosses, men and women, but I was assaulted twice when I was Miss America, actually. And I was trying to be a go-getter and try and break into the television industry while I still had some name recognition from that year. And I met with some high level executives, and both of them assaulted me in a car, and not at the same time unfortunately, it was two separate incidents. But in one case, this high-ranking television executive had spent all day with me, helping me, making cold calls for me.
Gretchen Carlson
And I thought, "Wow, he really respects how smart I am. And he thinks I have a future in this business." And then we went out to dinner, and when we were in the back of a car service, going back to my friend's apartment in New York City, he was suddenly on top of me and sticking his tongue down my throat. And it was just this horrendous, awful feeling of, Wow, this guy has absolutely no respect for me. And by the way, what the hell is this tongue doing down my throat?" And I tried to escape from him in a panic, and of course, burst into tears when I got up to my friend's apartment, didn't really tell her what had happened, because that's what we do. And I carried that with me for 25 years before I ever told anyone. Unfortunately, three weeks later, when I was in Los Angeles meeting with a high ranking PR executive, again, just trying to break into the business.
Gretchen Carlson
And he assaulted me in his car, and basically took my neck and his hand and forced my head into his crotch, and I couldn't breathe. And again, I managed to escape. So these two experiences in a short period of time, I was 22 years old. Somehow, I still wanted to go into the business, and somehow, I still kept fighting. But I think the biggest lesson from that is that, two things: One, I didn't tell anyone ever until I wrote my first memoir 25 years later. And I never even realized that those two situations were actually assault until I was writing my second book after my lawsuit. And I was interviewing one of the Trump accusers. And she said to me, "You realize your stories are assault, right?" And I was like, "What are you talking about?" She's like, "Gretchen," that's assault when somebody attacks your body.
Gretchen Carlson
And so it made me realize that as women, we're socialized to do so many horrible things, like stuff things deep down inside of us and never tell anyone about these horrible things that happened to us, but also not acknowledge even to ourselves what we've experienced. And so it took me to being more than 50 years old to call those episodes in my life assault. So there's that. And then in the workplace, on my very first job, my first assignment was to cover the Anita Hill hearings, which of course were huge sexual harassment hearings on the Hill. And I was promptly sexually harassed on the job right after that. And so that again was, I might've been still 22, maybe 23 years old, scared for my life out in a rural part of the state of Virginia with just my photographer and myself, and he was saying very lewd things to me.
Gretchen Carlson
And again, I didn't want to tell anyone, but I was so shaken when I got back into the newsroom that my boss actually, a man kept coming up to me and saying, "What's wrong, Gretchen, what's wrong?" And I finally broke down and told him, and to this day, I credit that male boss for caring enough to really want to know what happened to me, and for comforting me in a really difficult time. I then went on for many years, and worked in many other cities, and never had any terrible experiences all the way until I got to Fox News in 2005.
Shaunagh Connaire
So that particular cameraman, as far as I know, Gretchen, he was putting a microphone up your top on, and on his way, he touched your breasts. That was what has been reported, I believe. And when you did report him, did anything happen?
Gretchen Carlson
Well, I of course said at the time, "I don't want anything to happen to him," because again, even back then as a cub reporter, I figured this isn't going to be good for me. This isn't going to end well for me and my first job, and this is the fear that all women go through, especially when they're young. They fear the consequences, unfortunately, of the bad things that are going to happen to them instead of to the perpetrator. And so I made my boss promise that he would not fire this guy over my allegations. And the guy was eventually fired, I guess they had a laundry list of other issues. So it made me comfortable to know that he wasn't working there anymore, and it also made me comfortable to know that I was not the sole reason for that. These are things that I'm trying to change now. Fixing this is a complicated web it's, there's not just a silver bullet solution.
Gretchen Carlson
And just in the very few things we've talked about thus far, you can see that there's so much wrapped into it as far as trying to make it better, from emotions to courage to changing the way that we perceive this in the workplace to the laws. There's just so many different things that all have to happen sort of at the same time to be able to eradicate it.
Shaunagh Connaire
Absolutely. And one thing I also read about your time at Fox News, I'm not sure if you are allowed to talk about this, Gretchen, but it feels like there was a sense that a lot of the women anchors there like yourself were sexualized in a way, and you weren't allowed to wear pants. Is that true?
Gretchen Carlson
Well, I sort of let the cat out of the bag, and it wasn't even on purpose. I actually can chuckle about it now, because I do think it's kind of funny the way it happened. So I was in between shows, I had done the morning show, Fox and Friends, for seven or eight years. And then when they made it seem like I was being promoted to go and get my own show in the afternoon, which you can read in my lawsuit how that all played out, but I had this sort of time period when we were creating the new show and I was still going into work. I just wasn't on the air at the time, but I was doing a friend's radio show at Fox, and he also happened to videotape it. And so when I walked in to do the radio show, he said, "Oh my God, you're wearing pants." And I said, "Yes." And he said, "Well, I've never seen you wear pants." And I said, "Well, that's because we can't wear pants at Fox."
Gretchen Carlson
And I just said it because it was just like, I wasn't trying to get anyone in trouble or anything. Well, some reporter was listening or watching this podcast or radio show, and so they wrote about it. And let me tell you, that created a big firestorm [crosstalk 00:00:18:34], because they were like, "You weren't serious about that, were you?" And I was thinking to myself, "It's true, but you know." So I thought it was fascinating when I watched the movie, Bombshell, which, of course, I couldn't participate in all. I laughed out loud when the day after I filed my lawsuit, I have no idea if this is true or not, but one of the women was meeting with the stylist, and she said, "I need pants for tomorrow."
Shaunagh Connaire
I love it.
Gretchen Carlson
It just made me crack up because, well, you got to laugh about a lot of things that would otherwise make you cry.
Shaunagh Connaire
Exactly. Well, actually, you've just brought up the exact question I wanted to ask you next. How did it feel watching Nicole Kidman of all people play you in Bombshell? And as you say, Gretchen, you were not allowed to take part in the film. You weren't even allowed to verify if accounts were true, if they were accurately portraying you in what had happened, both in Bombshell and in The Loudest Voice where Naomi Watts, of course, played you. How did that feel? And I believe, Gretchen, you watched it with your kids?
Gretchen Carlson
Well, I didn't let my son watch The Loudest Voice. That was a Showtime miniseries. So it was eight episodes. Basically, the last four are specifically about what happened to me there. And it was pretty raw. So my son was too young to take that in. My daughter did watch that, but yes, for the movie Bombshell, we went incognito to the movie theater, because obviously, that would have been really weird if people found out that I was in the movie theater, and I had on this baseball cap, and it said, "Women rule", on it. And then I put a hoodie over it. And both my kids were like, "Mom, everyone's going to know it's you with that "Women rule" hat on. I was like, "They are not, but okay, I'll take it off even though I believe in it."
Gretchen Carlson
And so my kids, I said to them, "You guys, you can't say anything in the movie theater because nobody can know that we're in here." And of course, they violated all the rules because the minute their characters came up on the screen, they were like, "Oh my God, that doesn't look anything like me." And I'm like, "Shhhh."
Shaunagh Connaire
Oh, that's so funny.
Gretchen Carlson
Yeah. But they were cute. But yeah, I can't tell you anything about the portrayal of me, I can't say if it's accurate. I can't say if there were 10,000 other things they should have really put in. I can't say if any of the other characters and the way they depicted them is accurate, but I look at it in a positive way because first of all, the idea that Naomi Watts and Nicole Kidman would even think about playing the character of Gretchen Carlson is a surreal experience. And actresses of that caliber to take on roles that are so culturally important like this, we would have never been doing movies about sexual harassment just four years ago. So the idea that they thought it was also important was wonderful to me. And if this movie and the mini-series encouraged even just a couple other women to find the courage to come forward, then these productions have been worth it to me, even though I can't partake in them. I think they've been incredibly beneficial to the movement.
Shaunagh Connaire
Extraordinary. What I kind of want to talk, Gretchen, more largely about the story, as opposed to your story specifically, and I know a lot of women came forward to you from all walks of life and various different industries alleging sexual harassment as well. So I believe one in three women say they have been sexually harassed in the workplace, and something like 71% of women never report it.
Gretchen Carlson
Yeah, so the numbers are way higher than that.
Gretchen Carlson
They have to be, because if one in three actually report it or admit to it then, and you say 71% don't say anything, I can just tell you unscientifically, but I can tell you from all the thousands and thousands of women who've reached out to me that the numbers are much higher than that. And when I speak in front of huge audiences pre-COVID, and I ask for people to raise their hands if they've ever had an experience, almost every single hand goes up in the auditorium. So unfortunately, this is a prevalent epidemic and something that until recently, our culture didn't know what was going on because of the silencing mechanisms, but also, our culture has been okay with just sort of letting it skirt by.
Gretchen Carlson
And this is what these awakenings are all about. We're going through massive cultural awakenings on so many different fronts right now with Black Lives Matter, and with this MeToo movement that predated that. I really, really believe that these movements this time are not going to go away, that they're actually going to stick, and it's why my advocacy work has really just picked up so much steam, because people are very, very interested in solving this.
Shaunagh Connaire
And what is the next kind of phase of this cultural revolution? Is it eradicating NDA and gagging orders, you think?
Gretchen Carlson
Yes. So almost immediately after my case, well, the first thing I did was I wrote my book, Be Fierce, because I wanted to honor all of these women who had reached out to me who never had a voice ever. And when I said to them, "Could I share your stories in this book?" I thought they would say, "No, it's private," and almost all of them said, "Would you please?" And that signified to me that nobody else had ever cared about them. So that was my first mission. And then at the same time, I was starting to try to pass laws in Washington D.C., specifically to get rid of arbitration clauses in employment contracts. So simply stated, because it can be complex, there are two ways that we silence women, men too, but mostly women with regard to harassment in the workplace: arbitration clauses in employment contracts and NDAs.
Gretchen Carlson
So what companies have gotten very smart about is that they put these arbitration clauses in the contracts, which means that if you have any kind of dispute, that you can't go to an open jury process, that you will be stuffed into this secret chamber called arbitration. And the reason that that is so detrimental to women is because it's secret. So hypothetically, let's say you finally get the courage to go to human resources and report sexual harassment. Well, if you have an arbitration clause, they go, "Nobody will ever know about this." And then they shove you into arbitration where you don't get the same amount of witnesses, you get no depositions, there are no appeals. You got a bunch of old white guys for the most part who are the arbitrators, who I don't know what they know about sexual harassment, but probably not as much as a jury of your peers. And they're hired many times by the company for repeat business because they found in favor of the company before. Does it sound fair yet?
Gretchen Carlson
And so then you might get some sort of a paltry settlement, but the real kicker is the perpetrator gets to stay on the job because nobody knows about it. And you never work again because now when you go out to try and get a job, you can't tell your future employer why you left your last job because it was secret. And so you can't also have that company give you a reference.
Shaunagh Connaire
Unbelievable.
Gretchen Carlson
So now that the new company thinks, "Oh, she must have done something really bad."
Shaunagh Connaire
Unbelievable.
Gretchen Carlson
So these women don't work again. So that's what I was doing for a very long time, still doing, was trying to pass a law to make companies not have the ability to do that. Every day's a new beginning for me, never know what to expect, but that morphed into also including non-disclosure agreements as the second way that we silence women. And that is how I created my new nonprofit, Lift Our Voices, last December, to really form an organization, to put an umbrella over all of the advocacy work that I was doing.
Shaunagh Connaire
Fantastic. And I think it's really worth noting, that's how you were able to go public because you, or you haven't spoken about it publicly, but because you sued Roger Ailes personally, as opposed to Fox News, that's how you got out of the arbitration section. Also want to just note that NDAs were kind of invented in the 70s, I believe, for tech companies who were trying to protect trade secrets. So it's completely outrageous that companies now think it's legitimate and okay to gag women who complain about sexual harassment or discrimination or what have you. It's absolutely ridiculous, and you know what's even more ridiculous, it's when media companies do it, media companies who are set up on the premise of being in favor of freedom of speech. So yes, I think you're onto something there with your work. So I really wish you success with that.
Gretchen Carlson
Thank you. And thanks for mentioning the trade secrets, because we're not asking for companies to not have NDAs for everything. Of course, companies have proprietary information, like I'm not asking McDonald's to give up their big Mac recipe, or some nuclear company to give up their nuclear codes, or inside polling information about a politician. Of course, employees have to sign on to not disclosing information that could harm a corporation. But as you mentioned, these clauses have been abused to also be used for human indecency. And there was never an intent for that. It's become very convenient for companies to use arbitration and NDAs to hide their dirty laundry. That's how they've been able to look so pristine for the last 30 to 40 years and say, "Oh, we don't have any sexual harassment cases. We don't have any gender discrimination cases." Well, no. The real answer is that the general public doesn't know about it because you've been hiding it under arbitration in NDAs.
Shaunagh Connaire
Exactly. And before I go onto my kind of last section of the fix and what solutions you've come up with, Gretchen, which I know you have done, and let's do some myth-busting, because what you clearly portray to the world was that it's not "shrinking violets and weak women" who get sexually harassed or discriminated against in the workforce, it's pervasive throughout. And I think you really illustrated that, and it was quite powerful that it was you, a person with a voice and influence and power that went through this for so long. So is there any other myths that we would like to bust here while we're at it?
Gretchen Carlson
Yeah. There's so many. Listen, the people who come forward are automatic troublemakers, hat this doesn't happen to strong women. That just drives me bonkers. Just talk to my parents and my husband. They'll tell you, they wish I wasn't such a strong women. It's not about that. And I even think that, maybe it was Eric Trump, one of the sons of president Trump, said that it would never have happened to Ivanka, because she's such a strong woman. It has nothing to do with that. Yeah, she ran a great business, and I'm not saying anything bad about that. I've interviewed her a million times. It's a myth that power can still be held over strong women. And you might even argue that the higher you go in a corporation, it's even worse because they know that you want to continue to rise up the ladder.
Gretchen Carlson
So that's a huge myth, the idea that if we start talking so openly about this, that there'll just be so many lawsuits in the world if we take away arbitration and we take away NDAs. No, actually, if you take away those things, men will learn how to start behaving because they'll know that there's no shield for them anymore. Another huge myth is that, "Oh gosh, now that we've become woke, we can't invite women out to business dinners anymore because oh my God, they might sue us." No, men know how to act appropriately or not. That is just a massive cop-out. So there are so many myths, Oh, that women do this for fame and money. Oh yeah, really? Because it's so fun to have your entire life laid out there for people to criticize and for people to malign you on a daily basis on social media and attack your children. That alone would be a reason why women wouldn't come forward. It's not why they do come forward.
Shaunagh Connaire
Exactly. So my last question, Gretchen, to you, what can we do going forward? How can we fix this coverup culture? What can media bosses who are listening in do, what can men do? What can women do?
Gretchen Carlson
Well, first and foremost, we ask members of the media who are in positions of power, or any corporation for that matter to simply go to our website, liftourvoices.org, and sign on our pledge, which they're going to take out NDAs in their workplace. And they're going to take out arbitration clauses. Listen, some companies have done it. And I always say that they're the ones who will be on the right side of history. And if you want to continue to dig in your heels and think that this is just a passing fad and that we're going to go away, well, then we'll force you to do it through legislation. So if you want to be on the right side of history and truly retain women in the workplace, which by the way, every study shows that that increases your bottom line. And especially during COVID, 880,000 women have left the workforce in the United States of America since COVID.
Gretchen Carlson
If you want to retain women and increase your bottom line, you must eradicate these policies so that women can finally have a fair shake. And I could go on and on, pay women fairly, promote them, give them a seat in the boardroom. They're all intertwined. Guess what doesn't happen when you put more women in power? Sexual harassment. The last thing I would say is, I would implore companies to be introspective and change the way in which they handle this inside the confines of their own workplace. Get rid of the old school method of woman comes forward, oh, got to get rid of her. No, set the tone from the top that you're not going to tolerate that kind of behavior, that you're actually going to celebrate women and men who come forward and you're going to do an independent investigation. And if the claims are proven to be true, you are going to fire the predator, and you're going to keep the woman working.
Gretchen Carlson
Because of all the women I've spoken to over the last four years, that's all they want. They want to keep working in a job and not being harassed. So there's so much that leaders can do, but those are just a few of the very important things.
Shaunagh Connaire
Well, that's absolutely brilliant, Gretchen, and I'm going to add one in for the crack, but I think men need to call out bad behavior as well.
Gretchen Carlson
Oh yeah. Oh please, thank you so much. Yes.
Shaunagh Connaire
We need men as our allies as well.
Gretchen Carlson
Yes. Yes. So important, thank you.
Shaunagh Connaire
Thank you so, so much for coming on the Media Tribe podcast. I am so grateful. I know so many women listening to this podcast are so grateful, especially in our industry, you've done us all a huge service. So thank you, sincerely.
Gretchen Carlson
Thank you so much for having me, I appreciate it.
