Krishnan Guru-Murthy
Media TribeShaunagh talks to Krishnan Guru-Murthy
Krishnan Guru-Murthy is one of the main anchors on Channel 4 News in the UK. We chat about Krishnan choosing journalism over a career in medicine, a trip to war torn Yemen in 2016 that stuck with him and how he famously asked some tough questions to Hollywood stars Quentin Tarantino and Robert Downey Jr.
Episode credits
Hosted and produced by Shaunagh Connaire and edited by Ryan Ferguson.
Episode transcript
Shaunagh Connaire
Welcome to Media Tribe. I'm Shaunagh Connaire, and this is the podcast that tells the story behind the story. It's an opportunity for you and I to step into the shoes of the most extraordinary media folk who covered the issues that matter most.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
With these Hollywood types, they just aren't used to journalists who won't back off. The kinds of journalists they normally deal with are really scared of their whole industry and are really scared of losing out on the next interviews.
Shaunagh Connaire
Today. I'm chatting to Krishnan Guru-Murthy, one of the main anchors of Channel 4 News in the UK. Krishnan has covered major news events from around the world, including 9/11, the Omagh bombing, the Syrian conflict and the war in Yemen. Krishnan, how on earth are you?
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
I'm very well. Thanks, Shaunagh. I'm slightly frazzled as I've driven a thousand miles in the last two days across America in and out of a hurricane. But I'm good. I'm good.
Shaunagh Connaire
Well, you don't look frazzled. You look very together and collected as always, but it's lovely to see you in person. It's been quite awhile, Krishnan, a couple of years, at least I think.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
Yeah. A long time since Unreported World.
Shaunagh Connaire
Listen, start and tell me, Krishnan, how did you enter journalism? I know your story is quite brilliant, so I'm dying for our audience to know about your journey.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
I started out as a studio presenter when I was 18 years old. And I got my first job the week before my A-level results. And it happened because I did a lot of debating when I was at school. And I got invited on to a program called Open to Question, which the BBC used to run on BBC Two. And it used to invite groups of teenagers to question public figures, politicians, celebrities. And it was sort of a bear pit atmosphere in which the young audience were encouraged to be really blunt, quite aggressive and ask all the questions that professional, polished interviewers may not ask. And so I was one of those kids who kept asking awkward questions from about the age of 15, and they kept inviting me back. And so I did it over sort of two or three years.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
And when I was leaving school, I did sign ..levels, and I was all set to be a medic like my dad and I was going to medical school. But I took a year off and I wrote to the BBC to that department and said, "I'm taking a year off. Could I come and work for you as a researcher during my year off?" And they said, "No, but you could come and do some work experience." And so I went up and did two weeks' work experience at the features departments at BBC Scotland. And at the end of the two weeks, in which I was sort of generally quite noisy and kept putting in ideas and piping up during the meetings in the way that most work experience kids don't I suppose, they said, "Well, actually, we're looking for a new presenter for Open to Question, for that program, and we'd like to screen test you. And so they put me in the studio and they got me to interview my predecessor, John Nicolson, who is now a member of Parliament for the SNP [crosstalk 00:03:00] BBC journalist for a long time.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
And they offered me a job on the spot to do two series of that show. And it was the week before my A levels, and everything changed from that moment. So I started out doing that, which was basically interviewing and sharing a discussion, and then went from thing to thing. I then went to youth TV to work on a program called Reportage, and that's where I started learning about reporting and what was involved, because I literally knew nothing. I was a kid straight out of school.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
And so everything that I've learned since has been on the job. I went to university and I worked part time all the way through university on the Ethnic Minority Programs unit. And then, in my third year at university, I joined Newsround, the kids news program. And that's really where I learned about journalism, because you would spend a week in the studio and then a week on the road typically, and you would do all the big stories. You would go to all the big stories. I covered the U.S. election in '92, the breakup of Yugoslavia and all sorts of amazing things and just normal British stories and kids stories about whales and pandas and space and all sorts of things. And you learned how to tell stories. So that's really how I got into journalism,
Shaunagh Connaire
That is such a brilliant story in itself, because it's so unusual for somebody to start off like that. And for anybody who might not know you, who's not from the UK, you are very, very well known for your rigorous and tough questions. So it sounds like you were just always naturally like that. You were always a thorn in people's side, Krish. I mean the most loving way, of course.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
Yeah. I did always start out from the position of thinking about political interviewing, and Open to Question was essentially a political show and a debate show and it was an aggressive show. And so that was always my mindset. And when I decided to stick with TV, if I possibly could, my ambition back in those days in 1988 was to end up doing very serious stuff. My idols were Robin Day, David Dimbleby. I mean, not idols, but those are the people who I looked at and thought, "That's what I want to do." I wanted to do long political interviews. I wanted to do Brian Walden type interviews and David Dimbleby type interviews. And so, I've always... I think I've just set out on that road. And in a very meandering kind of way, through children's TV and entertainment and all sorts of strange things along the way, I sort of ended up there
Shaunagh Connaire
And you joined Channel 4 News in 1998. Is that right?
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
Yes, that's right. I'd done 10 years at the BBC. And I had just done the launch of the BBC News Channel, BBC News 24, as it was then. And I had done that sort of daytime... I did a daytime sequence. It was on at lunchtime, I think for three hours. And it was great fun launching that. And it was a learning experience in terms of a new digital channel in which everything would go wrong, and you would have to talk sometimes for what seemed like forever. And nothing would work and lines would go down and [inaudible 00:06:34] and all that kind of stuff. And I think that kind of gave you a sense of absolutely no fear when it came to live broadcasting. But some friends of mine who I'd worked with on Newsnight, which I did before the News Channel, for three years, all went over to Channel 4 News to relaunch Channel 4 News. The deputy editor of Newsnight became the editor of Channel 4 News, Jim Gray. And they said, "Come on over. We're relaunching Channel 4 News. It's going to be very different. We're going seven days a week." And it was irresistible, because it, strangely, they could offer me more range in terms of what I was going to be doing than the BBC.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
Because, again, when I went to Channel 4 News, I initially started out as somebody doing studio presentation for a week and reporting for a week. I always liked that mixture, because I felt being in the studio, especially when I was so young, I was only 28, it was just too soon to stop seeing the world. It was too much to learn and too much to learn about journalism. And also studio presentation endlessly can just be quite boring, if you don't see the stories for yourself. But also, being full time as a reporter, is really hard work and so unpredictable, and you can't plan a life and I'd already lost one big relationship, I think. And I thought, "I don't want this to define me." So I was really happy to have that kind of mix.
Shaunagh Connaire
And you really do have that mix. You haven't looked back. You're still at Channel 4. And, as you mentioned at the top of the show, you also make Unreported World, which is, of course, the foreign affairs series there. So you do get a good... You're at in the road, at least... Well, more than twice a year, because you got news as well, but you do have a good balance there, Krish. It looks like anyway.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
Yeah. No, it's always been really important to me to keep that balance of reporting and presenting. And so, yes, I do Unreported World, which is half hour films. And also, we travel quite a lot for Channel 4 News. I'm in the United States at the moment for Channel 4 News and have been out here for three weeks, and I've probably got another week or two to go. So I do spend quite a lot of time still on the road. And I think it's really important. There was some research done for the BBC, actually originally, a while ago on presenters and how the audience saw presenters, and our BBC executives told me all about it. And it's very interesting, I think, that when viewers see presenters still working as journalists out on the road, reporting, talking to real people in real situations and covering wars and disasters, as well as all the sort of the usual politics and what have you, it really enhances the audience's relationship with that person and trust in what that person is saying when they are in the studio. So I think it's really important.
Shaunagh Connaire
Well, that's really interesting. So it's about perception as well. And I'm actually... Do you know when you say that Krish, I'm thinking of a brilliant film that you made in Venezuela, and this is just one of many great films that you've made, but you've such great sense of empathy. It was a film about sick children, and, of course, you're a dad. But I remember thinking, because you are so well-known for your being fierce and asking those tough questions, but there's a whole other side to you as well, and maybe that's what you're referring to there.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
Television is such a two-dimensional medium in all sorts of ways. And people do want to pigeonhole you very quickly. Even people who work in television often really struggle with people having range and different sides to their personality, and they want you to be one thing or another. And so, yes, I think it's really important to as much of yourself as possible, so that you're not always just the hard-nosed guy who asks difficult questions of politicians, but you're also somebody who can understand people's lives wherever they may be, in Britain or around the world and have empathy and understanding for the problems you're talking about.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
Because I think a lot of studio presenters don't really do anything else. They just go into the studio, read out loud and get paid huge amounts of money, and I think it's very easy to become very out of touch as a result. So I think, I think it's really important, not just in terms of perception. Perception's important, and the way the audience sees you and trusts you is important, but also just for yourself to actually stay in touch with what's going on and to stay in touch with the news and with people's lives. I think it's really important to get out and still be a reporter.
Shaunagh Connaire
No, I think that's really well said, and it is an industry that likes to pigeonhole. There's no doubt about that. Let me move on, Krish, to my next question, which is the big question of the interview. Is there a story or film that you've covered that had impact and that you're rather proud of?
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
Overall, the story that I got to do in recent years that other people weren't getting to, that I felt we did make a difference on and led the news on as well, was an Unreported World trip I did to Yemen. And we went... It was very difficult to get into Yemen. It's still very difficult to get into Yemen to see how years of this war are affecting ordinary people's lives. And I [inaudible 00:12:06] for Unreported World, and we went to see how it was affecting ordinary people. And what we found was this terrible story of malnutrition, particularly amongst young children, babies. And we filmed in the hospital, and we went to refugee camps, and we followed a couple of different stories of individuals. And as soon as we arrived, we went into this emergency room, and we found one couple with a very young baby, who was clearly very malnourished, and it was touch and go. And they were trying to get some fluids into this baby.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
And while we were filming that, another very young child was brought in by a very anguished family and died on the bed right across the ward from us. And it was a very, very striking moment, right at the beginning of this trip, where you suddenly thought... You got the scale of what was going on here instantly. And so it became... That became sort of a motivation, I think, for the whole trip, to try and tell the story of what was going on and why. So as well as the human story, we were trying to tell a story of what was going on with the bombing of key infrastructure in Yemen by a coalition of Saudi led forces. And we got into the port in Hudaydah. And I think we were one of the first people to get in there... maybe the first to film the targeting of cranes that were being used to unload food for Yemen. And it had crippled the port.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
And so I think coming back with that kind of footage... And we also managed to film missile fragments, and there was quite a lot allegations around what missiles being used and were they British or American sourced. We found missile fragments that suggested that they were. And so I think bringing all of that back and telling that story... What happened was we came back and instead of just waiting for Unreported World to be put together in its normal way several weeks later and go out in its documentary [inaudible 00:00:14:30], I think within a day and a half of coming home, we were leading the news with it. And we put that footage on the news two nights in a row. And we made a real fuss about it and shouted about what we'd found.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
And I think doing that kind of thing is ultimately what we're all about, when you go somewhere that other people haven't got to and bring something back that you think is important that you want to shout about to the world. It's very difficult, I think, with any of these stories that you do to work out what impact your coverage ever has. But you hope that people are watching. You know that people are watching, and you hope that you have some impact on what they think about that story. And with that particular story, I also took it to lots of meetings, took it to MPs, showed them the film, talked about it a lot and said, "Look, this is going on and you don't know about it."
Shaunagh Connaire
I remember that. And that was actually going to be my next question. I do recall you taking it to Parliament, and you had documentary evidence, I believe, that possibly British made bombs... which is, that's how you have impact though, isn't it, when you're able to show people in power what's going on and hold their feet to the fire and try to hold them to account in some way?
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
Yes. Unfortunately, the British government wouldn't do an interview about that issue with us, but we ended up talking to what we call surrogates, supportive MPs who will come on and defend what the governments are doing. But in that process, even if you can't talk to the ministers, you are still generating discussion and getting your story talked about, and that's important. But, yes... And we also took it, as you say, to an all party group and aired it with MPs and sparked discussion around that. And it came at the same time as there was this legal action to try and halt British arms sales to Saudi Arabia, because of allegations that those arms were being used in Yemen.
Shaunagh Connaire
Exactly. And I think it's worth, for our audience who are not journalists, I remember that time, getting into Yemen, as you say, was a real struggle. I believe you had to get a Saudi visa under Yemeni visa. You had a great, [inaudible 00:16:44], the wonderful, wonderful Iraqi producer was able to get to... and, of course, your brilliant director, Patrick Wells. But maybe explain that process as well, Krish, because our audience mightn't understand that you can't just jump in a plane and go and uncover this story in Yemen.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
Well, so much of what we do is all dependent on permission to enter any place, and that's particularly the case with Yemen. And it's obviously in the interests of those people who don't want an issue aired to the world to say no, and just to deny you travel permission. At that time, Yemen was in a different territorial situation in terms of who controlled what, but what you needed to do was get clearance from the Saudi authorities to land in Yemen in advance. And it could take two weeks to do that, and you had to book a particular date. They could just say no for whatever reason they gave. But we managed to get permission to go in.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
And then, it's a question of, once you get in, where can you go, because if you get your visa, you then have to get permission to travel around the country. At that time, there was a checkpoint every couple of miles, and you used to have to show your papers as to who's given you permission to be there, and that would both be the government and the intelligence or authorities there would have to approve your travel. And so every time you went anywhere, you would have to ask for permission and say, "We want to go from A to B tomorrow. Is that okay?" And they might say yes or no. So it's a constant process of just trying to negotiate the system, work within the rules, get to where you want to get in order to tell your story.
Shaunagh Connaire
And that was 2016, just to give it context. I recall you guys in the edit back then. So that film is called Britain's Forgotten War. It's on YouTube. Look for Channel 4 under [inaudible 00:00:18:42]. It's a great film. It's a really important film to watch. So go and do that.
Shaunagh Connaire
Now, Krishnan, you're probably going to kill me for bringing this up. But as you've already stated, you are a wonderful journalist. You've done extraordinary work over the years, but there is one interview that you're slightly famous for... actually not one, there's a couple, which I watched yesterday, mostly for entertainment. But it was with either, whichever one you want to talk about... Quentin Tarantino or Robert Downey Jr. where you were in their bad books, to say the very least. Does it bother you that that interview has been viewed millions and millions and millions of times, as opposed to your really important work that you've done in Syria and Yemen and many other places?
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
I don't know whether it bothers me. Sometimes it does, to be perfectly honest. We were only really beginning to understand the internet and what that would do to your work, I think around the time of those interviews. There was a big difference between Quentin Tarantino and Robert Downey Jr. in that they both went viral, but the way they did and the speed with which they did was quite different, even in the space of a year or two or whatever what was the time difference between them. It's funny. I do hundreds of interviews a year, and, of course, only if only a few of them will ever go viral in that way. And people often assume that that's what you want.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
There's this phrase gotcha journalism now, which I've never really understood as a phrase, as a sort of a criticism, because if you want your politicians held to account, then you should want your interviewers to ask hard questions. That's not gotcha. I'm never looking for a moment where I can say, "I've got you." I'm just trying to ask them the questions that people want [crosstalk 00:20:42]-
Shaunagh Connaire
And do your job.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
... and do your job. With celebrities, it's different. And with neither of those, was I looking for a particular explosive moment. With Quentin Tarantino, that interview was done at a time when the premiere of his movie had had to be canceled because of a school shooting. And the vice president had called in the Hollywood studio bosses to talk about violence in movies and video games. So it was completely in the news and quite predictable, I thought, as a question, that he would be able to talk about it. And I wasn't actually looking to have a go at him. I was a huge fan of Quentin Tarantino films when I did the interview, and I certainly wasn't looking to fall out with him. But he reacted very, very sharply to a fairly simple question about whether there was a relationship between movie violence and real violence.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
And it's one of those things where, with these Hollywood types, they just aren't used to journalists who won't back off. So the kinds of journalists they normally deal with are really scared of their whole industry and are really scared of losing out on the next interview. So they're often quite client-based.
Shaunagh Connaire
I'm so glad you said that, because this is something I really wanted to ask you. I'm obviously sitting here in New York, and we've various channels on to watch the news. It's so different over here. I don't think the U.S. audience quite understand what the BBC does, what Channel 4 does, what PBS of course here does. But the difference in... You would never have faced any pressure from bosses above that you had really, really... excuse my language... but you pissed her off Quentin Tarantino. That just wasn't an issue, because your job was to ask the hard questions. You did that. And of course you were going to air that interview, whereas, potentially, in other commercial outlets here, that interview would have been cut. You wouldn't... And you would have been in trouble I'm sure.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
Well, I think there's a totally different culture. To be fair, actually, to the Tarantino publicity machine, the press officer who was in the room, thought it was hilarious and thought it was brilliant and had no problem and didn't try and pressure us afterwards or anything like that. And we didn't have any real blow back from them. Of course, there was then reaction from other people in the industry when I was doing interviews, and they would be a little bit wary, but it still didn't stop anything.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
What happened after Robert Downey Jr was quite different. And again, because of what had happened with Quentin Tarantino, when the Robert Downey Jr interview was booked, they asked, "What do you want to talk about?" And I got a call from a producer a few days before the interview saying, "Oh, what are you going to interview him about?" And I really hadn't thought about it at that stage, to be honest. It was just a celebrity interview we were doing in a few days' time on the news as we often do. And so I said, "Well, I suppose we'll ask him about his amazing story of having gone from prison and drugs to being Hollywood's most bankable star." It's an amazing story, because I knew we'd talked about it in the past. "And we'll about Iron Man." A.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
And that's exactly what I did... talked about Iron Man for a few minutes, and then tried to move it onto a topic that I knew he'd talked about before. He, again, reacted very badly. What happened after that is history, and he walked out. And then, some studio boss came in the room, and I said, "Well, is he coming back?" And she said, "Well, that's obviously not going out." I said, "Well, of course it's going out. He's just done it. He's done it on telly." And she said, "Well, who do I need to ring at Channel 4 to make sure this doesn't get broadcast?" I said, "You can ring the Chief Executive of Channel Four for all I care. They'll tell you the same thing as I'm telling you. You can't stop things going out. The only way that that won't go out is if you get him back in here, and he finishes the interview." And she said, "Well, that's not going to happen." And I said, "Well, then, what happened is going to be broadcast."
Shaunagh Connaire
Well, this is... All I was going to say, Krish, was that is exactly why the world needs publicly-owned broadcasters. It really, really is.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
Well, I think it's just an example, because I think since then we've become a lot more savvy about the pressure that is put on broadcasters around interviews. And actually that whole attitude has infected politics and the way political interviews are managed and pressure is put on broadcasters in the same way, as if it's talent that you can manage, rather than people in power who are being held to account. So I think it's a different attitude that we have.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
But obviously, I don't... you know what? I don't really like talking about it in that way with regards to showbiz, because ultimately there's no reason why Quentin Tarantino or Robert Downey Jr. should answer any of these questions about serious things. They're entertainers at the end of the day. And they're not really in huge positions of power. But if they offer themselves up for interview, then I think they should be open to it. So I think this idea that you can manage an interview and that they both have this attitude that what they were doing was adverts or a commercial for their movie. And that they think that they can use the media as a vehicle that is just a commercial is just wrong.
Shaunagh Connaire
Yeah. Well, you certainly told them otherwise. Krish, last question, always my favorite, is there a crazy moment in your amazing career that you'd like to tell our audience about, a crazy moment working in this industry that has never made it to air?
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
There were so many crazy moments. Every trip that you do is sort of crazy in some way, or you find yourself in very strange situations. As I say, I've just driven a thousand miles through very, very treacherous roads. I was driving out of the hurricane yesterday, driving over power lines that had been downed. And we would stop and go, "Well, I think we can assume that those lines aren't live." And similarly in the more dangerous places you go to you have these everyone's got their stories and crazy moments. But there are stories that don't happen, that don't make it on air in our game, that, often, there is no control over.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
So I once went to Afghanistan for Unreported World, and we had what was going to be an absolutely amazing film lined up, in that we were going to be the first people into Bagram prison after Bagram had been handed over from the Americans to the Afghans. And it was the most extraordinary access that had been negotiated and given by the Afghan Defense Minister. And I had a handwritten note from him saying, Give Unreported World access to Bagram prison."
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
And so we flew out, and you go through hours and hours of security to get into Bagram Air Base. It takes you several hours and all sorts of checks. And we got into the General's office, who runs the place now, and he made us wait for a long time at the end of the room, while he did his paperwork and established who was boss. And then he said right there, "Yes. What do you want?" And we said, "Well, we're the team from Channel Four Unreported World, and we've come to film. Can we get our camera out now, because we like to film everything as we go?" And he was like, "No, no, no. Show me your letter." And I handed him the letter, and he looked at it for a few minutes, nodded and said, "Mm. This letter says you have permission to film in Bagram prison, according to the rules of Bagram Air Base The rules of Bagram Air Base are there is no filming." And we were like, "Well, that's a letter from the Defense Minister and isn't he... He's in charge isn't he?" He said, "I am in charge of Bagram Air Base, and these are my rules and my rules are, there is no filming." And so that was that. So we'd arrived in Afghanistan with seven days ahead of us and suddenly no story. So the fact... That sort of catastrophe-
Shaunagh Connaire
Krishnan, I know that story well, because I was sitting in a restaurant, in a lovely Turkish restaurant, on a Saturday night. I hadn't seen my now husband, who was my boyfriend, in weeks, because he lived in Belfast. And I remember getting a text from our wonderful series [inaudible 00:29:08] saying, "Find a story in Afghanistan. Everything has fallen through." So we actually left the restaurant to go home to look for stories in Afghanistan. So I can only apologize for that situation.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
No, no. I think that's part of [inaudible 00:29:23]. Those sorts of things happen all the time, where you think you've gone for one thing and you end up doing something else.
Shaunagh Connaire
Of course. Well, that's a brilliant one. I can only apologize, but you made me feel really bad again. Listen, Krishnan, we leave it there. You're an absolute star, always lovely to catch up and thanks a million for your time.
Krishnan Guru-Murthy
Thank you, Shaunagh.
Shaunagh Connaire
If you liked what you heard on this episode of Media Tribe, tune in next week, as I'll be dropping new shows every week with all sorts of legendary folk from the industry. And if you could leave me a review and rating, that would be really appreciated. Also, get in touch on social media @shaunagh on Twitter or @shaunaghconnaire on Instagram. And feel free to suggest new guests. Right. That's it until next week. See you then. This episode is edited by Ryan Ferguson.
