Nawal Al-Maghafi
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Shaunagh talks to Nawal Al-Maghafi
This episode features the BBC's Special Correspondent, Nawal Al-Maghafi. Nawal has been one of the few journalists reporting the ongoing conflict in Yemen over the past few years.
Her investigation into a 2015 attack on a Yemeni funeral — the deadliest of the conflict so far — provided key evidence in the case against weapons sales to Saudi Arabia by the US and UK and her most recent documentary, Iraq’s Secret Sex Trade which aired on the BBC and PBS FRONTLINE won two Emmy awards in 2020.
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Credits
Hosted and produced by Shaunagh Connaire and edited by Ryan Ferguson.
Episode transcript
Shaunagh Connaire
This episode is sponsored by Noa, the home of audio journalism. The first 100 people to visit newsoveraudio.com/mediatribe will get a week free to listen to articles from the Washington Post Foreign Affairs and Harvard Business Review, plus 50% off.
Shaunagh Connaire
Welcome to media tribe, the podcast that's on a mission to restore faith in journalism. I'm Shaunagh Connaire , an award-winning journalist with over 10 years of experience working for some of the biggest news outlets in the industry. Every week, I'm going to introduce you to some of the world's most respected journalists, filmmakers, and media executives, and you're going to hear the story behind the storyteller. You'll get a sense of the integrity and [inaudible 00:00:49] that's involved in journalism, and hopefully you'll go away feeling that this craft is worth valuing.
Nawal Al-Maghafi
... But it was the first time I'd ever see a child die. It was actually his grandfather who said, "Bring that camera," like, "Bring the camera woman back." And so then we had these people running to us and he was having his last breaths and we got there and I said, "Don't film." It's such a personal moment. And then the grandfather was like, "No. Film. Film." And the boy was clearly dying. It was just so sad. And I just remember him saying like, "It's so important for people to see what they've done to our children."
Shaunagh Connaire
My guest today is Nawal Al-Maghafi, the BBC's Emmy-winning special correspondent.
Nawal Al-Maghafi, you're so welcome to the Media Tribe.
Nawal Al-Maghafi
I'm so excited. I've been listening to them and now I'm so excited to have my turn.
Shaunagh Connaire
I'm delighted to have you on, Nawal. We crossed paths many years ago, I'm going to say maybe 2012 or 2013. And I've a lovely memory of you and I in the Yemeni Embassy in London, sipping sweet tea, trying to get visas. I mean, it was you absolutely do all the hard work, obviously, and me just sitting there enjoying the tea.
Nawal Al-Maghafi
I know. Do you remember the piece of advice that man gave you from behind his desk?
Shaunagh Connaire
Yes. Do you want to tell our audience about that, Nawal?
Nawal Al-Maghafi
I don't remember what he said exactly, but I remember him asking whether you're married or not, or whether you've had children or not, and then basically saying, "Time is ticking. It's time to move along."
Shaunagh Connaire
He did. I remember him. He asked me if I had a husband and I told him I had a boyfriend who is now my husband. But he was particularly disgusted that my husband, my now husband, hadn't proposed at that point. So I obviously went home and gave him a hard time as I always do.
Nawal Al-Maghafi
[crosstalk 00:02:35] It worked out.
Shaunagh Connaire
It worked out. Enough about me. Let's start the interview by you telling our audience about your amazing career to date and how you landed in the BBC as their now special correspondent.
Nawal Al-Maghafi
Like with everyone, it really wasn't an easy start. I think we met when I was right at the beginning of my career. I always knew I wanted to work in TV going into university, but I wasn't sure what, and my parents were actually not very supportive about me becoming a journalist for all the obvious reasons.
My parents are originally Yemeni. They know all the risks that are involved in becoming a journalist, growing up in Yemen for them. So they weren't really very supportive. My dad really pressured me to go into medicine at university. So I did the first year and then I dropped out, unfortunately. It just wasn't for me. And then I went in and I did economics with politics, and then they still were really hopeful that I'd graduate and then go into something like finance or something very kosher, basically.
But I knew I wanted to become a journalist. Although I think it's really important to add that I never ever wished to become a war correspondent or to work in war zones. I'm such a wuss. I didn't imagine in a million years that I would ever go to the places that I've been to. And I really think it's what happened in Yemen and how things evolved and not just reporting on the story, but living the story too, that made me realize how important it was to do that job. And it just kind of happened naturally.
And over the years, because when the war broke out in Yemen my parents were actually in Yemen at the time with my younger siblings, no journalists could get in at the time. And at the time I had never been to a war zone. Basically that was my first war zone.
And it was actually my father who called me from Yemen and said, "You really have to come here. You have to come and report on this." And ever since then, ever since I went to Yemen and reported on the war there, they've been so supportive. Everyone always asks me, "When you've gone to Iraq or Syria or whatever, your parents must be terrified." But actually, after that experience, after they lived the war themselves and they realized how important journalism is in getting the stories out there and holding people accountable, they've been so supportive, and they don't actually voice their fears when I'm traveling.
Shaunagh Connaire
Well, that's amazing. What I've found really brilliant about your career is that you haven't just covered Yemen. What I'm really, really encouraged by is that you haven't been pigeonholed at all as, "She's Yemeni. Let's send her to Yemen. That's all she'll be doing for us." You've covered, obviously, the Middle East extensively. You speak Arabic, of course. But also, you've covered Ireland. I remember now having a conversation with you, Nawal, before you went to do a piece for Newsnight about the abortion referendum there, as that would have been back in 2018. So it's amazing. You cover everything now, isn't that right?
Nawal Al-Maghafi
Yeah. Initially it was really hard. I was pigeonholed in the beginning, but I think it's really important when you're going into journalism to find your niche, and to find a story that you're really passionate about, and that only you can do, or that you can do really well, to stand out from the crowd.
And for me, Yemen was that. I had access. I knew it inside out, and I just discovered so many different stories that no one else could get to. And so it was really important for me to do that, to find my place in the media landscape where it's just so competitive. And also, I can carry on reporting on Yemen, because it's such a personal story for me and it's really important. But it was hard to come out of that and to prove myself, to prove to people, that I can do other things. I'm not just the Yemen reporter, as they'd say.
And it meant that I basically had to force myself to prove, or I just had to prove, that I could do what I do in Yemen somewhere else. So I had to find my own stories in other places and say, "No one else has presented you with this story, and I know I can do it, and I know I can do it well." And as soon as I started doing that, it just became a lot easier. And I think it was more that I had to prove to myself that I could do it. And then once I'd done that, it was easy to convince everyone else.
Shaunagh Connaire
And you really do it so well. I mean, particularly with Yemen, you have really, really shown the human cost of war through your news reports and your various documentaries as well, Nawal. My big question of the interview is always whether there is a story or a film or documentary that you're extremely proud of, which I'll ask you now, and whether it's Yemen or not, that's okay. But we'll inevitably go back to Yemen at some point.
I think there's two for me that have basically been the highlights of my career so far, and definitely it is Starving Yemen. Just because that was my first piece on the war in Yemen, and it was such an emotional one, and it was such a difficult one for me, personally, to go back home and to go back to the place that I grew up in and to see it completely destroyed by war. And also to see-
I had such a wonderful childhood in Yemen. Yemen was such a beautiful place when I was a child. I went to school there. I used to play with my cousins there and I have such fond memories of it. And to go back to the same places I used to go to when I was a child and to see children just living in the most horrific conditions, to see all those severely malnourished kids that we saw in starving Yemen, it was so difficult. And when I came back, I definitely came back a different person.
But I'm so proud of it, because the reaction was incredible. And I think making it, I was convinced, as a lot of people, a lot of the mums in the film say, "No one's going to care. You're filming us, but no one in the outside world actually cares about what we're going through." And throughout the process, I started to get convinced myself that no one cares about what's happening in Yemen. And so when it came out and there was like just this outpouring from the audience that watched it, all these mums getting in touch with me, all these people texting me and emailing me, and sending letters to the BBC. And I just thought, "No. People do care. This is why we do this." And it really just made all of it worth it.
And a lot of people were like, "You need to go to therapy after making that film." For me, the best therapy was just seeing how incredible the audience can be. The reaction was amazing. We raised so much money. People didn't want to just give to charities. They were finding the children themselves. They were going way past me by finding the children themselves and supporting them. I went back to visit the kids, and it was like, "Oh, this woman from Liverpool got in touch and she pays for him to go to school now." And I'm just like, "Wow. This is incredible."
Shaunagh Connaire
Well, that's extraordinary. It was an amazing film, and it was very hard to watch. I watched it when it aired. That's a few years ago now, but it was a very hard one to watch, Nawal, because we weren't looking at images of malnutrition. We were looking at starving, starving kids. You could see bones popping out of their bodies. And there is a scene in that film, as far as I recall, where you just seemed so upset. And, as a person, as you say, you grew up there. It must be desperately hard to cover home turf in that way and see your own country being destroyed by bombs made by the UK where you currently live and where I am here at the US. How were you feeling internally in that particular scene?
Nawal Al-Maghafi
It still makes me so emotional, that scene. But I remember it because it was the first time I ever- Now I've witnessed it many times, but it was the first time I'd ever see someone, see a child die, and it was just so depressing that it was just something so preventable.
I remember the child passes away. His name was [Shy 00:11:42]. He dies in the film. It was like, he just needed an antibiotic because he had a fever and they didn't have the antibiotic. And for me, it was a horrible situation to be in the middle of, to see his mum there and his grandfather. And it was so painful. And I remember thinking, someone told me that- We'd seen him. We'd filmed the scene with him, and then we went to a different ward. And it was actually his grandfather who said, "Bring that camera," like, "Bring the camera woman back."
And then, we had these people running to us. And he was actually gasping, like was having his last breaths when the grandfather called for us. And we got there and I said, "Don't film. It's such a personal moment for the family." And then the grandfather was like, "No. Film. Film." And the boy was clearly dying. It was just so sad.
And I just remember him saying, "It's so important for people to see what they've done to our children."
Shaunagh Connaire
I'm sorry, Nawal. That's testament to your journalism, your bravery, and your will to show those pictures to the rest of the world. It was a very, very important film at the time. And as you say, it did lead to impact, and I know that's what you think journalism is all about and certainly what I think it's all about. And you continue to push the story forward in the sense that you've been back several times, and covering the cholera outbreak.
I think you've shown the world that it isn't just poor families that are starving and dying and that we can't relate to at all. You've really shown, no, no, no, this is a country, an entire country, obviously under siege, but also dying. As I said, you live in London, where we know these bombs that are being dropped by the Saudi led coalition are being made in Britain. What do you do as a journalist working for a British institution? What can you do about that?
Nawal Al-Maghafi
It's really hard, because as journalists, we just have to remain impartial. It's really difficult. For me, I've always said it's not about selling the weapons. It's about being responsible about how they're being used, and that's what I continuously say. And so as a journalist, we just have to keep being there when they're not being used correctly, because that's how you hold the States accountable. And so, that's what I've always done, is try and show the impact of what's happening with these weapons, show the impact of this blockade. And as long as we carry on doing that, then we're putting pressure on governments to really think twice about their decisions.
And it works. When these films come out and when these news pieces come out on the Ten and stuff, they do have an impact, and we see change. When Starving Yemen came out at the time, the big story, the whole reason why the humanitarian situation was so bad, is because they'd bombed the cranes in the ports. And so, no food was able to be offloaded into the country. And as soon as Starving Yemen came out, the US sent emergency cranes into Yemen, these makeshift cranes, so that foods could be offloaded. It's like little things like that that really make you feel like what we do is so important, and it's just so rewarding.
So that's all I can do, really, is just to keep doing my job. And just like everyone else, sometimes you just feel so helpless, but it's covering the stories that make you feel like, "Okay, at least I'm doing my part in some sort of way."
Shaunagh Connaire
Well, I'm so glad the career in politics and economics didn't work out after all, Nawal. That is good news for all of us.
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Right. Back to Nawal.
You did mention there's another story that you're quite proud of as well, Nawal, if you want to dip into that one.
Nawal Al-Maghafi
I think definitely our film Iraq's Secret Sex Trades I'm very proud of. It was really difficult to make. But from the moment I heard about the story, I just knew it was so important. And I remember whenever I pitched it, everyone was like, "Yeah, you're never going to be able to do that. You're never going to be able to make this film." And even in Iraq, when we got to Iraq, every time we spoke to anyone local about it, they were like, "Yeah, you're never going to be able to film that."
Everyone knew it was widespread and it was happening, the sexual exploitation of these young girls by religious clerics. But it was just no one believed that we'd be able to capture it on camera. And I mean, it wasn't easy. It took a really long time.
Shaunagh Connaire
I don't doubt that for a second. And your amazing Iraqi producer, [Mays Al-baya 00:17:23] worked with you on that one. So the headline of your film, Nawal, is you were covering these, in inverted commas, 'temporary marriages', I think they're called. Is it mut'ah [crosstalk 00:17:35] marriages they're called?
Nawal Al-Maghafi
Yeah.
Shaunagh Connaire
And basically it allows men to get married for a couple of hours, a couple of days, couple of months by clerics, and it's all in a bid to just really have sex, and not just with women, but with young girls as well.
There's a really, really, really grim scene where your undercover reporter is asking the cleric, what he can do to I think it was a 13-year-old girl that he was going to temporarily marry. And he kind of depicts what he's allowed to do under Sharia law and that involved ... You can tell our audience. You know the story a lot better than I do, Nawal.
Nawal Al-Maghafi
I remember him telling him that basically if she's a virgin, she can't lose her virginity, but he can do whatever he wants from behind, and he could do whatever he wanted, as long as she doesn't lose her virginity from the front. Which I just thought ... It was just ... It wasn't just our undercover reporter was saying that she's 13 years old, but then the clerics actually tell him, "It's fine, even if she's nine years old. It doesn't matter. It's just that if she's a virgin, you can't penetrate her from the front, but you can do it anally. But if she's not a virgin, then you can do whatever you want."
I just remember those sessions where me and Mays would sit with the undercover reporter. He'd come out of these situations and start telling us what the cleric had said. And I swear, sometimes I thought he was making it up. And I was like, "Listen, let's just watch the footage first. Let's just see what you filmed before ... Let's just wait." And then we'd get back to the hotel and we'd watch the footage, and me and Mays were just stunned.
When we pitched the story, we didn't think it was that bad. We thought they're selling women. We thought it was bad. Don't get me wrong. But we thought it was going to be a film about how these clerics were selling women for sex, a bit like prostitution. But we didn't think that we'd actually be able to capture clerics on camera saying that, because then it shows you how widespread it is, because these clerics were chosen at random. So if you choose three clerics at random and all of them are saying you can sexually abuse a child, then that means this is a widespread phenomenon in these areas. So it was very, very shocking.
Shaunagh Connaire
Essentially, as you say, it was prostitution, but also they were opening up a shop for pedophiles to come to this particular location in Iraq, but also for foreigners to try and get in and access young girls in this way. I don't even know how to describe it. It's appalling. And am I right in thinking, Nawal, that that practice is illegal under Iraqi law, but it's legal under Sharia law once the girl has turned nine? Is that right?
Nawal Al-Maghafi
Well, it's really complicated with Sharia law. It's definitely illegal in Iraqi law and mut'ah generally is illegal in Iraqi law. And with Sharia, it's really debatable. I mean, personally, there's nothing in the Qur'an that says this is allowed, but of course there are different interpretations of the Qur'an, and basically different clerics write up these different interpretations, and based on whom you follow, you follow their interpretation.
And really, people end up picking and choosing what works for them. So if a guy wants to have sex with a nine-year-old, then he'll pick and choose this cleric who's saying he's allowed to do so, which is very convenient. But Islam doesn't allow this. The Qur'an doesn't allow this.
As we were making this film, I think the most difficult part was as we're revealing these things, I was just like, "Oh my god, the backlash is going to be so bad. And I'm the face of this." So it was really scary, the thought of the day it comes out, and how are people going to react to this. And the reaction was very mixed. Of course the film did really well, but the reaction from the Muslim community, especially the Shia Muslim community, was really bad.
Shaunagh Connaire
So in the film, you obviously, as all journalists must do, give a right of reply to the person you've made these allegations against, and the cleric that you called up just hung up on you. You called him from London. Do you mean, Nawal, the reaction from the people you filmed with, or actually people within the Shia community who maybe knew stuff like this was going on?
Nawal Al-Maghafi
No, no. The reaction from the Shia community. So basically what happened was, obviously the clerics we confronted- And you saw that in the film. And then we also sent the film, or at least our findings, to Ayatollah al-Sistani, who- In our film we explain this. He had the teaching in his book that said this is allowed, mut'ah marriage with a child. And so we basically told him, "Look, your teaching? This is what it's resulted in. Clerics are doing this in Iraq and children are being abused."
And actually he put out a statement then and said, "Then I'm going to retract my teaching because they're abusing it. This is not what it means." And that was incredible, because he basically puts out this teaching to every single marriage office in Najaf and Karbala and stuff, and so all these marriage offices were now told that this is not allowed in Islam and, "This goes against my teaching."
But then when the film came out, the Shia community just felt like this was a stab at their religion. They felt like this was an attack against Shia Islam. So we had protests outside the BBC. I had to have security for months afterwards. I couldn't [crosstalk 00:00:23:31]. Yeah, it was really bad.
Shaunagh Connaire
I didn't know that, Nawal. Was Mays the same?
Nawal Al-Maghafi
No, because Mays, she's named in the credits, but it's just because my face was in the film. So everyone knew how I looked like and who I was. And so I'm a lot more public than Mays is. But yeah, it was really, really difficult, initially. But it was expected. I was fully aware that the reaction was going to be really hard. I mean, I think it's kind of blown over slightly now. People are starting to forget about it. But initially ...
And I remember we had this Frontline Club screening, and outside the Frontline Club, as we were watching the film for the first time, you could hear the chants of the protesters outside the Frontline Club.
Shaunagh Connaire
Wow.
Nawal Al-Maghafi
And then there was just a lot of angry people in the audience as well. They'd planted people in the audience.
Shaunagh Connaire
Oh, wow. I didn't know that, Nawal. I really didn't. Oh, that's astonishing. Well, that's such a good sign, that your journalism was very, very good and rich. These people have to be exposed, and so, well done. More impact again there, Nawal.
Nawal Al-Maghafi
No, no. I'm so proud of it because we closed down the marriage offices of those clerics in the film. Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani put out a new teaching and it's great. That's basically all you want when you make a film like that, to make some sort of change. You know, next time a cleric gets asked if someone can marry a child, he'll say no.
Shaunagh Connaire
He'll say no. And that film went on to win two Emmys this year, which sadly you didn't get to go to because of the Corona virus, but you looked very glamorous on Skype or Zoom or wherever it was done, Nawal, as usual.
One last question before you go, Nawal; kind of what we tapped into before, but more from a female perspective. Have you found that being a woman has helped you in your role as a special correspondent at the BBC?
Nawal Al-Maghafi
Just tapping into what we were speaking about earlier about me reporting on Yemen a lot and then not being pigeonholed and progressing onto other stories, first of all, being a woman of color and being originally Yemeni, I think it has been really difficult in a place like the BBC and just in the UK in general. It's been really difficult because you're constantly having to prove yourself. I've been told numerous times, for example, "Oh, but maybe we should get," for example, "Stacey Dooley to report this because she is more relatable."
And don't get me wrong. I'm a huge fan of Stacey Dooley and I think she's absolutely brilliant, but it has been disheartening at times for people to tell you that you can't cover abortion in Northern Ireland, for example, or that's not a story for you. Whereas for a white journalist, they can go and report on whatever they want around the world. So that's been quite difficult. But I think over the years, I've learned to put my foot down and say, "No, I can do this. And that's ridiculous."
But generally, as a woman working in the Middle East? People always say, "Oh, she's a woman. That must be so difficult. And extra applause for being a female working in the Middle East." But I found it to work in my favor. I get access to people's homes to speak to women who would never let a man into their house. When I go and interview a politician, when I first sit down, they're not very threatened by me because I am a woman. And then I take them by surprise afterwards. But usually they'll say yes, because I'm a woman and then realize, "Oh god, I shouldn't have done that."
Shaunagh Connaire
Just picking up on your first point there, Nawal, that is so, so important that that is changing. It has to change. I think it's absolutely outrageous that because you're a person of color, you can't cover abortion in Northern Ireland. Who makes those rules? And as we both know, so many white journalists have made their names in places like Syria and Yemen, and I'm so, so glad and heartened that the industry is changing. People are opening up their eyes and realizing that somebody as amazing as you can cover any story they want. So good for you, Nawal.
Potentially lighter question, and I know you being you and all the travel that you pursue, that you will provide the goods for me. But is there a bonkers experience having worked in this industry that you'd like to tell our audience about?
Nawal Al-Maghafi
You know what? I knew this was going to come because I knew you ask everyone this question. So a few years ago I interviewed the president who's now been killed, but back then, President of Yemen, Ali Abdullah Saleh. And he asked me, "Are you married?" And at the time I wasn't. And then- This is the repetition of what happened to you, Shaunagh, basically. And then he said, "A woman is like a glass of milk. If you keep her out too long without getting married, she goes off, and then nobody wants to." And I thought, "Okay."
Anyway, fast forward a few years later, I met my partner, got married, and then, my husband's originally Yemeni, and he goes back to visit his parents in Yemen. His father's quite influential in Yemen. He went to meet the president. So he took my husband with him. And then he said, "So are you married?" And my husband said, "Yes, I am actually, and I think you met my wife." And then he said, "Who's your wife?" And he was like, "Nawal Al-maghafi. She works for the BBC." And he was like, "Oh, tell her she's a good girl. She took my advice."
So my husband came home and he was like, "What was his advice?" I just sad, "Oh my god. I can't believe he remembered."
Shaunagh Connaire
That's brilliant, Nawal. That's absolutely brilliant. Thank you so, so much for coming on the podcast. I know how busy you are, and I know we've both tried hard to get this interview into our diary. So you're an absolute star, Nawal. We really appreciate it.
Nawal Al-Maghafi
No, of course. It's such a pleasure. It's always good to catch up with you, Shaunagh.
Shaunagh Connaire
If you like what you heard on this episode of Media Tribe, that's very good news because I'm going to be dropping new shows every week and every month on my new Media Tribe Spotlight Series.
Also, if you haven't already, make sure to take a listen to previous shows with some legendary folk in the industry. And as ever, please, please, please do leave me a rating and review, as it really does have other people find this podcast.
Finally, if you do have any guest suggestions, drop me a note on Twitter. I'm @shaunagh with a G H, or @shaunaghconnaire on Instagram, and again, that's with a G H. Right. That's it. See you soon.
This episode was edited by Ryan Ferguson.
